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Old 28-11-2011, 09:55   #151
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Few race boats, even, will tack through 90 on the GPS while making optimal or even acceptable VMG to windward. I am guessing that the wind speed at which the VMG to windward of a well set up Flicka drops to zero will be around 20 knots. Keeping off the rocks of a lee shore is all about VMG to windward -- keeping that above zero -- you understand that, right?
Where do you get that "0 VMG @ 20 Kts windspeed"? I would guess the Flicka could do much better than that with the proper sails up.

One reason race boats are less close-winded is because they are fast the Apparent Wind Angle moves way forward. They do make wider tacks to optimize VMG, but that's because they can sail fast. A much slower displacement boat (like the Flicka) may be able to tack closer to the wind because the AWA is closer to the True Wind Angle.

I would guess that a Flicka would have difficulty regularly tacking through 90 degrees, but if you're not looking for best VMG, just the tightest angle (and this includes the leeway), it might be possible.

(I've never sailed a Flicka.)
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Old 28-11-2011, 10:23   #152
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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One reason race boats are less close-winded is because they are fast the Apparent Wind Angle moves way forward. They do make wider tacks to optimize VMG, but that's because they can sail fast. A much slower displacement boat (like the Flicka) may be able to tack closer to the wind because the AWA is closer to the True Wind Angle.
Paul, I disagree with your basic statement my friend. Having raced J-24's, I found them very close winded. I now own cruiser(s) and with one of them very similar to the Flicka. When the wind is up and the swells are larger, they do not make VMG. My Valiant does, to an extent, but a 20 ft cruiser? Any 20 ft cruiser? Sorry.
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Old 28-11-2011, 10:33   #153
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

To answer the OP locally a sailboat was grounded on a LEE shore when it's 4hp outboard was unable to make headway against the wind in Matagorda bay. He attributed his grounding to lack of tacking room in the narrow bay, and his engine was underpowered for the conditions. After fighting for several hours the ship was lost when it struck a reef and was swamped.

It may be my powerboat history, but not only am I looking for a sailboat with a substantial inboard diesel, but I will be mounting a large 14hp or better outboard for ready deployment as a backup.

If you are in a narrow channel, and the wind is coming right off the nose, all the tacking in the world wont save you.
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Old 28-11-2011, 10:55   #154
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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To answer the OP locally a sailboat was grounded on a LEE shore when it's 4hp outboard was unable to make headway against the wind in Matagorda bay. He attributed his grounding to lack of tacking room in the narrow bay, and his engine was underpowered for the conditions. After fighting for several hours the ship was lost when it struck a reef and was swamped.

It may be my powerboat history, but not only am I looking for a sailboat with a substantial inboard diesel, but I will be mounting a large 14hp or better outboard for ready deployment as a backup.

If you are in a narrow channel, and the wind is coming right off the nose, all the tacking in the world wont save you.

No doubt, been there, tried that, ended up coming about and running for it.
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Old 28-11-2011, 10:57   #155
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Paul, I disagree with your basic statement my friend. Having raced J-24's, I found them very close winded. I now own cruiser(s) and with one of them very similar to the Flicka. When the wind is up and the swells are larger, they do not make VMG. My Valiant does, to an extent, but a 20 ft cruiser? Any 20 ft cruiser? Sorry.

I found that Oh Joy can get within 25* in 30+ but ya ain't going anywhere. Fall off to 40* with the right sails you can make headway up to about 40 knots depending on wave action and the sail combination. It will be very ugly though, very...
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Old 28-11-2011, 12:00   #156
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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[...]
He had an engine as well -

It was 7 hp, and capable of pushing Joshua at all of 2 knots in a dead calm. It was not for clawing off lee shores [...]
I'm guessing the engine is a vintage, 1 cylinder Yanmar 1GM?
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Old 28-11-2011, 12:02   #157
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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Paul, I disagree with your basic statement my friend. Having raced J-24's, I found them very close winded. I now own cruiser(s) and with one of them very similar to the Flicka. When the wind is up and the swells are larger, they do not make VMG. My Valiant does, to an extent, but a 20 ft cruiser? Any 20 ft cruiser? Sorry.
A racer is close-winded when you're looking at AWA. As the speed increases the AWA can remain tight, but the TWA will be falling off. Best VMG will be at wider tacking angles. (I realize that you know all this.)

All I'm saying is that the slower boat may well be sailing at tighter TWA angles. The faster boat will still win on VMG. Can the Flicka tack inside of 90 degrees? I'll bet it can with the right windspeed and sail trim. This will not be the best VMG -- no doubt this improves when not pinching.

Sure, there are sea states where a Flicka can no longer sail upwind. There are sea states where no boat can sail upwind.

I'm not sure what we're arguing about. I was just questioning the "0 VMG at 20 kts windspeed" statement. I don't think the typical offshore seastate in those conditions would prevent a Flicka from making forward progress.

I will agree that if you put a Flicka in the breakers then you're probably not going to be able to sail out. I wouldn't want to try to sail any boat out of that situation.
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Old 28-11-2011, 12:10   #158
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yea!

Napoleon complex!

I'm an ******* too - and arrogant.

but back to my original points:

"wont make way to windward in 20 knots"

well....what about this then?:



That's me and "Nomad" out frollicking last spring.

25 gusting to 30 knots, mixed west and southwest swell, short period and breaking. I'm in 200 feet of water, about 10 miles out of MDR, off of m
Malibu. As usual, no other boats were out. I'd estimate the biggest waves at around 10 feet this day, but I've given up on estimating wave hieghts at sea, because there is no fixed frame of refference. I can tell you that they were much larger than they appear here, as ever with film.

That's my 80% working jib and 1 reef in the main, close hauled under autopilot. She is making about 5.5 knots, and as you can see, she absolutely LOVES having her rail under, and is a JOY to sail under such conditions.

no engine, she beat out there against those confused seas and strong winds.

And Ive had her out in much bigger (breaking - like at the beach) waves and even stronger winds.

Was I terrified?

YES!

Hell, for the first year I was terrified EVERY SINGLE TIME I WENT OUT. I thought I was gonna die in my little boat, but I kept on going out - all alone, becuase all my freinds have thier priorities screwed up and have full time jobs that they hate.

Then, a funny thing happened.

I learned how to SAIL her, and I learned to TRUST her, and I noticed that as conditions got worse, she became more stable. Properly rigged, canvassed, helmed, and trimmed, she just digs in and blasts through. Keep her powered up. These are the conditions she was designed for - rough and off-shore.

The roughest day I was out was this spring. It was a wednesday, and a huge, wierd, breaking sea was rolling in from an offshore gale to the west, along with 20 knot plus winds.

Wednesday is race night, and after being out all day (alone) on the bay, I came back in to watch the fleet head out, because there are some amazingly good sailors in MDR, and two big transpac sleds, "Pendragon" and "Margaritaville" with big professional crews that dual for line honors all summer.

This promised to be interesting - the seas looked to me to be averging around 10 feet, with the largest exceeding 15 feet, and it was blowing hard, and they were breaking. Many boats simply turned around and abandoned the race.

but not those two.

The course is always a windward/leward one, so they beat out and run or broad reach back.

...and the big boys dont reef. They put up a small jib, and play the traveler, because damed if they are gonna reef.

And so I decided to watch the show. I hove to in about 40 feet of water - so you can imagine the sea state.

and those big boats were getting HAMMERED. I mean knocked on thier beam ends, masts whipping around wildly, crews scrambling for the rail...it was mayhem.

then I saw it:

A 40 foot plus Tartan with a blue hull, limping back into the harbor under power.

Dismasted.

seems her rig couldnt stand the strain.

My Flicka?

rode like a duck.

I dont bullshit.


...and there is a "sail zone" up the main chanell at MDR where you sail, and power "lanes" to either side -

If you vist, please keep the "no sail" bouys to port entering and exiting under power, so I dont have to tack to avoid you.

;-)
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Old 28-11-2011, 12:31   #159
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Any particular reason for your Main to be luffing like that while going to windward? Looked like 4-6' seas to me and maybe 20 knots true...
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Old 28-11-2011, 12:40   #160
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pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Okay... for a start 20kts is only a force 5... my Corribee 21 will sail happily in that...
I do dispute however that the film was in '30kts'....
The sea's were to small and hardly any whitecaps... maybe a F4...
The pic in my avatar was taken just W of St Vincent... it was blowing a N'ly F6-7 and the general run of current is S down the coast of Portugal.
Sea's are much bigger in 30kts...
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Old 28-11-2011, 13:35   #161
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

That video.. my god, those Flicka's are s l o w . . . almost looked like slow-motion to me

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 28-11-2011, 13:40   #162
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pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Oh..... should add that the pic's taken on a 37ft Waqueiz Chance...
not my 20ft 9" Corribee...
Sea's woulda looked much bigger in her...
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Old 28-11-2011, 13:42   #163
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

I personally like the mop flopping in the wind in the background.
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Old 28-11-2011, 14:02   #164
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pirate Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

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I personally like the mop flopping in the wind in the background.
MOP......
I'll have you know thats a delicate sophisticated and highly sensitive wind speed/angle instrument...
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Old 28-11-2011, 14:04   #165
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Re: OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

Must be me but I dont see 10 foot seas breaking or the efects of 30 knot winds..
Odd thing, this wind speed and wave heigth thing.. I put it in the same catagory as the story of the fisherman and the one that got away!
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