OMG ! Clawing Off a Lee Shore in a Gale !

[zeehag]

goood then kedging and having a small libation as celebration for saving face and dollars is a good thing...
.sabray--wm hasnt a clew........have ye tried special order from manufacturer in mexico???? they slap yer order on a limping worn out burrro and should be there by xmas, 2013.....

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I spent last night anchored off a lee shore. Nothing dramatic, no gale. The predicted NW winds changed to SW overnight. The anchorage was completely exposed to the S.
This sort of thing happens cruising. The wind was only 20 K so I expect electric would have coped fine leaving the anchorage if necessary, but I would have been worried, and there would not have been much reserve with a small electric motor if the S wind had picked up and made the anchorage untenable. Sailing out of this anchorage at night would not have been sensible.
Small electric motors, or drive systems with limited range do involve compromises. Boats can be sailed and cruised without engines, but there are at lot of difficulties involved.
.

If I was going to go electric, it would not be all electric. I would repower the main engine with something about half the normal HP, and piggyback an electric system on top of that.

For getting in and out of marinas and bays in reasonable weather, electric only. For long distance motoring engine only running at it's sweet spot for fuel consumption. When I need high power I can use both for limited periods of time.

The weight savings from the smaller engine would go into increased battery bank size and larger fuel tanks.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see the OP make the assertion that people should sail without any motor. He freely admits he has an auxiliary motor, its just weaker and has a shorter range compared to most.

You seem to be overstating his case in order to discredit him.

I don't even know that person. Why would I do that???

You read it one way, I read it another.

Interestingly, I just used the wind to "sail" my boat into a slip -- without putting any sails up. The wind direction was JUST right and I had forward thrust -- it was steering I didn't have.

I couldn't have done it a year ago. A year ago, someone would have had to get on my boat and do it for me. Skills are cumulative, and what one person thinks is vital, another person sees as "important," another as "useful," and yet another "not needed." IMO those people are all reflecting their skills.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I don't even know that person. Why would I do that???

You read it one way, I read it another.

Interestingly, I just used the wind to "sail" my boat into a slip -- without putting any sails up. The wind direction was JUST right and I had forward thrust -- it was steering I didn't have.

I couldn't have done it a year ago. A year ago, someone would have had to get on my boat and do it for me. Skills are cumulative, and what one person thinks is vital, another person sees as "important," another as "useful," and yet another "not needed." IMO those people are all reflecting their skills.

I saw something a couple years ago durring the big boat series at "Saint Frances" YC.. The boat was setting in the slip, sails up and flogging.. one of the crew grabed the boom and pulled it out to the side and the boat backed out of the slip into the fairway, under sail, he then tightened up on the sails and proceeded to sail out of the marina.. No Motor..
It took me a couple years to perfect backing up under sail but I have done it..

[Hogan]

Sorry its taken me a while to reply - I've been sailing the past four days straight, doing sea trials with my new outboard. It works great, and has tremendous torque.

That's the nice thing about living in Los Angeles. The weather and natural lanscape here is great, but the city....and Hollywood?

=(

Anyway, I've got nothing against J-boats, except that thier rigs, rudders, and keels seem a bit spindly for offshore work - a couple of years ago one sank during the Baja haha rally after striking a whale.

Seems the rudderpost tore out, leaving a huge hole in the stern, which sank the boat in about 40 minutes, fortunately giving its crew time to climb -up - into thier life raft.

The USCG recieved thier EPIRB mayday, and reached them about 4 hours after the masthead dissapeared below the waves 250 miles south of San Diego.

Seems the speed of the boat and efficiency of its keel worked against it in this instance. Winds were around 30 knots, they were headed downwind, and were surrounded by a pod of whales. A sensible move would have been to reduce sail and heave-to, but then again, J-boats dont heave-to very well do they?

I'm pretty sure my Flicka would keep her rudder if she struck a whale at any rate - then again, losing her rudder wont sink her since its keel hung on a set of bulletproof bronze grudions and pintles. She's also considerably slower than a J-boat, much more heavily built, with a full keel, and has less mass, meaning any impacts will involve considerably less energy.

How many Flickas have sunk offshore - or inshore for that matter?

Flickas have been across all of the worlds oceans, repeatedly and around the Cape of Good Hope, and I'm not aware of a single sinking. Sure, people have managed to get into trouble in them - but then again, people got into trouble aboard the Titanic too.

I dont know about other Flickas, but tacks through 90 degrees with her 110 jib up, and again, I have the gps tracks to prove it - I can provide anyone who likes with a KML file of them if they like so they can view them in Google earth.

Maybe they have an all purpose roller furling headsail that's too light and sets poorly, especially when reefed. You know, a roller furling headsail and associated hardware, windage, and wieght aloft that hurts windward performance, especially when things get ugly?

lol....

With her 140 genoa up mine doesnt point real high, but she has a hell of a lot of power as long as I dont pinch or over-sheet it. She will carry that monster in 18 knots while still making some progress to windward, though again, its pretty ugly 45 degrees of heel, rail completely submerged, my books, girlfreind, and underwear flying around the cabin....but you never know where the upper limit is until you try.

That sail needs to be allowed to breathe, so I sheet it out a bit and foot off, trading pointing high for VMG to windward.

My 7.5oz, wire luff 80% jib can be sheeted inside of the shouds for beating when the going gets tough, and she points a few degrees higher than the 110 like this, as long as there is enough breeze to drive her (20 knots plus, with the main either flattened with the traveler down, or single reefed depending on the sea state, and how angry and bruised up my girlfriend is after I take down the 140.

Big seas are not a problem for small boats (long wavelength) small chop (short wavelegnth) is becuase of thier low resonant frequency.

Ever watch gulls or comorants sitting in the water when its rough? I do. I'm facinated at how they just roll over waves that are proportionally 100 feet high to them like it's nothing - while I'm getting absolutely hammered by the same 8 foot waves.

but once the get bigger than that.... things calm down, and the bigger boats start getting hammered - while I make tea and apologize to my girlfreind for the earlier mayhem.

Really huge breaking seas? Well, at least I can manuver quickly. Inshore, stay in port. Offshore, stand off, right?

Be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and stout ground tackle, properly set, with a looooong rode, basic seamanship, and sailing skills are your best bet, not a huge, cantankerous engine.

My ground tackle is capable of withstanding a working load of around 1.5 tons, and has a breaking strength of over twice that.

How big of an engine do you need to generate that amount of force?

Can you fit it on my Flicka and still keep the ability to sleep and store provisions for me and my woman?

I doubt it.

No matter how big of a boat you have, the ocean is much much bigger. The point at which things go bad is merely different, and thats not neccesaraly a good thing - especially if your big boat and big engine encourage you to take risks you wouldnt take in a smaller vessel or neglect to build and practice skills, like short tacking, that are basic and essential to competent seamanship.

Like I did all weekend against foul tides and shifting winds through the crowds in the MDR main channel - alone, both with and without the help of my autopilot.

Those skills, if kept sharp, will hold you in good stead when that big engine of yours quits while youre trying to enter some narrow reef strewn lagoon pass - a much more likely scenario than it saving you from a lee shore in a gale. I think engines make us lazy, overconfident, and complacent. They are useful for calms and for close quarter manuavering - but once you truly master prop-walk - and from what I can tell, virtually no-one in MDR even knows what prop-walk is, much less mastered it.

its useful for MOB situations in moderate conditions for an inexperienced sailor I suppose.

Oh, and when you have to make it to some pointless meeting on Monday so you can pay someone else for fixing, fueling, and maintaining it.

That's about it.

Overconfidence kills, not small boats or small engines.

Santa Ana winds blow from different directions and forces depending on the local topograpgy and meterological condions. There is a mild one blowing from due east right now - at least it's moderate here in Marina Del Rey.

They usually follow cold fronts, and they usually blow from the North-East, but you never know - they can appear litterally overnight out of nowhere, and they can be very dangerous.

And Santa Monica Bay is a bay, so yea, I know what "embayment" is. I'm always embayed until I beat out 15 miles or so against the 18 knot westerlies and steep chop that rake Northern Santa Monica Bay every summer afternoon.

Anchors, seamanship, storm sails and prudence - that's my point.

Auxilliary engines on sailboats should be seen as just that - auxilliary.

The most powerful sailboat engine is a joke compared to even a modest power boat engine, so if you really believe engines are your best hope in extremis, why not trade in your sailboat for a stink-pot?

You do know what a stink-pot is, right?

;-)

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

I saw something a couple years ago durring the big boat series at "Saint Frances" YC.. The boat was setting in the slip, sails up and flogging.. one of the crew grabed the boom and pulled it out to the side and the boat backed out of the slip into the fairway, under sail, he then tightened up on the sails and proceeded to sail out of the marina.. No Motor..
It took me a couple years to perfect backing up under sail but I have done it..

I did it once too, in sail school, when the student boat was about to go over the safety boat's rode. Since I'd just started -- but it's all just thinking about the forces involved, and "time on water" so that you understand quickly how it applies in a situation. Things were JUST right the other day or I couldn't have done what I did, but I was glad I understood the opportunity.

I will no longer call myself a "beginning" sailor. I have promoted myself to "intermediate."

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Hogan

Sorry its taken me a while to reply - I've been sailing the past four days straight, doing sea trials with my new outboard. It works great, and has tremendous torque.

That's the nice thing about living in Los Angeles. The weather and natural lanscape here is great, but the city....and Hollywood?

=(

Anyway, I've got nothing against J-boats, except that thier rigs, rudders, and keels seem a bit spindly for offshore work - a couple of years ago one sank during the Baja haha rally after striking a whale.

Seems the rudderpost tore out, leaving a huge hole in the stern, which sank the boat in about 40 minutes, fortunately giving its crew time to climb -up - into thier life raft.

The USCG recieved thier EPIRB mayday, and reached them about 4 hours after the masthead dissapeared below the waves 250 miles south of San Diego.

Seems the speed of the boat and efficiency of its keel worked against it in this instance. Winds were around 30 knots, they were headed downwind, and were surrounded by a pod of whales. A sensible move would have been to reduce sail and heave-to, but then again, J-boats dont heave-to very well do they?

I'm pretty sure my Flicka would keep her rudder if she struck a whale at any rate - then again, losing her rudder wont sink her since its keel hung on a set of bulletproof bronze grudions and pintles. She's also considerably slower than a J-boat, much more heavily built, with a full keel, and has less mass, meaning any impacts will involve considerably less energy.

How many Flickas have sunk offshore - or inshore for that matter?

Flickas have been across all of the worlds oceans, repeatedly and around the Cape of Good Hope, and I'm not aware of a single sinking. Sure, people have managed to get into trouble in them - but then again, people got into trouble aboard the Titanic too.

I dont know about other Flickas, but tacks through 90 degrees with her 110 jib up, and again, I have the gps tracks to prove it - I can provide anyone who likes with a KML file of them if they like so they can view them in Google earth.

Maybe they have an all purpose roller furling headsail that's too light and sets poorly, especially when reefed. You know, a roller furling headsail and associated hardware, windage, and wieght aloft that hurts windward performance, especially when things get ugly?

lol....

With her 140 genoa up mine doesnt point real high, but she has a hell of a lot of power as long as I dont pinch or over-sheet it. She will carry that monster in 18 knots while still making some progress to windward, though again, its pretty ugly 45 degrees of heel, rail completely submerged, my books, girlfreind, and underwear flying around the cabin....but you never know where the upper limit is until you try.

That sail needs to be allowed to breathe, so I sheet it out a bit and foot off, trading pointing high for VMG to windward.

My 7.5oz, wire luff 80% jib can be sheeted inside of the shouds for beating when the going gets tough, and she points a few degrees higher than the 110 like this, as long as there is enough breeze to drive her (20 knots plus, with the main either flattened with the traveler down, or single reefed depending on the sea state, and how angry and bruised up my girlfriend is after I take down the 140.

Big seas are not a problem for small boats (long wavelength) small chop (short wavelegnth) is becuase of thier low resonant frequency.

Ever watch gulls or comorants sitting in the water when its rough? I do. I'm facinated at how they just roll over waves that are proportionally 100 feet high to them like it's nothing - while I'm getting absolutely hammered by the same 8 foot waves.

but once the get bigger than that.... things calm down, and the bigger boats start getting hammered - while I make tea and apologize to my girlfreind for the earlier mayhem.

Really huge breaking seas? Well, at least I can manuver quickly. Inshore, stay in port. Offshore, stand off, right?

Be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and stout ground tackle, properly set, with a looooong rode, basic seamanship, and sailing skills are your best bet, not a huge, cantankerous engine.

My ground tackle is capable of withstanding a working load of around 1.5 tons, and has a breaking strength of over twice that.

How big of an engine do you need to generate that amount of force?

Can you fit it on my Flicka and still keep the ability to sleep and store provisions for me and my woman?

I doubt it.

No matter how big of a boat you have, the ocean is much much bigger. The point at which things go bad is merely different, and thats not neccesaraly a good thing - especially if your big boat and big engine encourage you to take risks you wouldnt take in a smaller vessel or neglect to build and practice skills, like short tacking, that are basic and essential to competent seamanship.

Like I did all weekend against foul tides and shifting winds through the crowds in the MDR main channel - alone, both with and without the help of my autopilot.

Those skills, if kept sharp, will hold you in good stead when that big engine of yours quits while youre trying to enter some narrow reef strewn lagoon pass - a much more likely scenario than it saving you from a lee shore in a gale. I think engines make us lazy, overconfident, and complacent. They are useful for calms and for close quarter manuavering - but once you truly master prop-walk - and from what I can tell, virtually no-one in MDR even knows what prop-walk is, much less mastered it.

its useful for MOB situations in moderate conditions for an inexperienced sailor I suppose.

Oh, and when you have to make it to some pointless meeting on Monday so you can pay someone else for fixing, fueling, and maintaining it.

That's about it.

Overconfidence kills, not small boats or small engines.

Santa Ana winds blow from different directions and forces depending on the local topograpgy and meterological condions. There is a mild one blowing from due east right now - at least it's moderate here in Marina Del Rey.

They usually follow cold fronts, and they usually blow from the North-East, but you never know - they can appear litterally overnight out of nowhere, and they can be very dangerous.

And Santa Monica Bay is a bay, so yea, I know what "embayment" is. I'm always embayed until I beat out 15 miles or so against the 18 knot westerlies and steep chop that rake Northern Santa Monica Bay every summer afternoon.

Anchors, seamanship, storm sails and prudence - that's my point.

Auxilliary engines on sailboats should be seen as just that - auxilliary.

The most powerful sailboat engine is a joke compared to even a modest power boat engine, so if you really believe engines are your best hope in extremis, why not trade in your sailboat for a stink-pot?

You do know what a stink-pot is, right?

;-)

I've sailed on a Flicka and she had no trouble tacking even in light wind (we back-winded her and she did exactly what she was supposed to do). I'm thinking whoever thinks they don't sail well to weather was on one with the wrong sails, or the rigging needed tuning badly, or something, because that hasn't been my experience.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Hogan

rail completely submerged, my books, girlfreind, and underwear flying around the cabin....but you never know where the upper limit is until you try.

and how angry and bruised up my girlfriend is after I take down the 140.

apologize to my girlfreind for the earlier mayhem.

basic seamanship, and sailing skills are your best bet, not a huge, cantankerous engine.


like short tacking, that are basic and essential to competent seamanship.

Like I did all weekend against foul tides and shifting winds through the crowds in the MDR main channel


;-)

Got to question some of the remarks you've made..
sailing at the point that the rail in in the water and objects are flying around the cabin due to the way you are sailing are NOT showing good seamanship.. kinda just the oppisite..
and what catches my thoughts most are you bragging about short tacking up the Marina Del Rey Channel over a crowded weekend..
Not only is it not good seamanship, but you are lucky the harbor patrol didnt site you for a hazard to other boaters..
Short tack in front of me while I'm entering a channel while I'm under motor and I'll run right over you..
and being under sail, and myself under power, you'll always have the knowledge of knowing you were right, DEAD RIGHT!
and to put your girlfriend in harms way, you've got another strike against you..
At the risk of this post being knocked off the Forum, got to say, you are one of the boaters that give the rest of us a bad reputation...

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Hogan

My ground tackle is capable of withstanding a working load of around 1.5 tons, and has a breaking strength of over twice that.

How big of an engine do you need to generate that amount of force?

Can you fit it on my Flicka and still keep the ability to sleep and store provisions for me and my woman?

I doubt it.

An anchors holding ability will generally be much less than the SWL of the chain

[David_Old_Jersey]

Although I am sure Hogan can speak for himself (he doesn't appear to be shy ), nonetheless my tuppence worth:-

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Got to question some of the remarks you've made..
sailing at the point that the rail in in the water and objects are flying around the cabin due to the way you are sailing are NOT showing good seamanship.. kinda just the oppisite..

I think that was simply a reference to seeing what the boat could do / how it would react - not as a usual method of travel.

and what catches my thoughts most are you bragging about short tacking up the Marina Del Rey Channel over a crowded weekend..
Not only is it not good seamanship, but you are lucky the harbor patrol didnt site you for a hazard to other boaters..
Short tack in front of me while I'm entering a channel while I'm under motor and I'll run right over you..
and being under sail, and myself under power, you'll always have the knowledge of knowing you were right, DEAD RIGHT!
and to put your girlfriend in harms way, you've got another strike against you..
At the risk of this post being knocked off the Forum, got to say, you are one of the boaters that give the rest of us a bad reputation...

I am not familiar with the MDR channel, but to my eyes short tacking in restricted waters does not have to mean acting like a twat by claiming "rights" and barging through others. Although for some it may do

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Hogan

.....
Overconfidence kills, not small boats or small engines.
....

You've made a good logical statement and given us a personal example of overconfidence and cockiness all in the same message.

A Flicka isn't the be-all and end-all of cruising boats. It is a very small boat with limited performance that has pluses and minuses, as any other boat.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I've sailed on a Flicka and she had no trouble tacking even in light wind (we back-winded her and she did exactly what she was supposed to do). I'm thinking whoever thinks they don't sail well to weather was on one with the wrong sails, or the rigging needed tuning badly, or something, because that hasn't been my experience.

Your observation seems a little self-contradictory. If the boat tacks well, then she doesn't need to be back winded to make a tack.

[CharlieCobra]

I found that in very light air under the influence of currents, I've had to back wind the mizzen to get back on a tack I wanted. It depends on the situation. Under normal conditions no. no backwinding required. However, with a big Genny, it helps to hold the new lazy sheet until the bow comes through the wind and that sail is backwinded a bit to get it across in a hurry. Ya gotta be quick though or you end up cranking the winch a lot.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Hogan

I dont know about other Flickas, but tacks through 90 degrees with her 110 jib up, and again, I have the gps tracks to prove it - I can provide anyone who likes with a KML file of them if they like so they can view them in Google earth.

While pinching in a flat sea, perhaps. Few race boats, even, will tack through 90 on the GPS while making optimal or even acceptable VMG to windward. I am guessing that the wind speed at which the VMG to windward of a well set up Flicka drops to zero will be around 20 knots. Keeping off the rocks of a lee shore is all about VMG to windward -- keeping that above zero -- you understand that, right?

Originally Posted by Hogan

Big seas are not a problem for small boats (long wavelength) small chop (short wavelegnth) is becuase of thier low resonant frequency.

They will be a problem when they roll you, and it doesn't take a big one when you have a beam of 8'.

But for this discussion the problem is not being rolled, it's being taken aback. If the seas are coming from the same direction as your hypothetical gale-force winds, then you will not be able to sail up them. You will slide off to leewards, which will put you beam-on to the seas and put you at risk of broaching or being rolled, and nullify any progress to windward you might have made sailing down the back side of the previous sea. Besides that, with a 30 foot mast, you will be becalmed in the troughs of even modest-sized storm waves. I have a feeling from your remarks that you have not tried sailing in these conditions. It will be terrifying in a boat like that.

Originally Posted by Hogan

Be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and stout ground tackle, properly set, with a looooong rode, basic seamanship, and sailing skills are your best bet, not a huge, cantankerous engine.

My ground tackle is capable of withstanding a working load of around 1.5 tons, and has a breaking strength of over twice that.

How big of an engine do you need to generate that amount of force?

Clearly armchair theory talking here. Have you ever anchored in open water in any weather before? I have. First of all, in a storm, the seas really rise up and start breaking when the water gets shallower than 150' deep or so. The amplitude of the waves gets shorter and the waves rise up and start toppling over. Do you have enough line to anchor in 300 feet of water? If you can't sail or motor your way out past the 100' depth curve, you had better call the coast guard helicopter and get your life jackets on, because your anchor will never help you. The waves will put huge snatch loads on your ground tackle, and if your anchor holds -- unlikely, but suppose -- then something will break. That's why the theoretical holding power of your anchor cannot be compared to the power of an engine -- two words -- snatch loads.

At best, your anchor may buy you a few minutes to get into your life raft. But that's if you can even deploy it. In gale conditions, with the steep breaking seas which appear near lee shores, it is unlikely you will be able to get onto the foredeck at all. The bow will be in free fall as you fall into the trough, and you will be pitched off as if by a bucking bronco. If you somehow manage to hold on, you will be washed away when the bow goes under water.

I got caught in an unpredicted wind shift in sub-gale conditions, in Studland Bay where the holding is practically ideal. We were anchored to our 121 pound Rocna in 50 feet of water with 330 feet of 1/2" chain out. The wind was 25 gusting to 30 -- conditions we sail in easily as long as we are offshore -- it's just an F6. The seas were not even that big because the fetch was only 15 miles. But being less than a mile from the beach, the chop was vicious, and the waves were breaking, and my heavy 1" nylon snubber snapped like embroidery thread, and I thought the bow of the boat would be snapped off by the unsnubbed chain. I am still not sure how we got that anchor back on board, with the bow completely buried in green water every few seconds, but we did (thank God for stout jacklines), and I powered through the chop and spray to get sea room using all 100 horsepower, with waves breaking over the bow and green water washing down the deck. We would have been on the beach if we had futzed around attempting to get sail up, or if the engine had failed to start. And that's in a 22 ton high performance cruiser. And that's not even a gale.

That's what a lee shore looks like in any weather, if you have the misfortune to get close to it. Just a couple of miles further out, and the whole thing was nothing more than a good sailing breeze. If you have not seen it, then all the armchair theory in the world will not prepare you for how to deal with it.

Originally Posted by Hogan

No matter how big of a boat you have, the ocean is much much bigger. The point at which things go bad is merely different, and thats not neccesaraly a good thing - especially if your big boat and big engine encourage you to take risks you wouldnt take in a smaller vessel or neglect to build and practice skills, like short tacking, that are basic and essential to competent seamanship.

Like I did all weekend against foul tides and shifting winds through the crowds in the MDR main channel - alone, both with and without the help of my autopilot.

Those skills, if kept sharp, will hold you in good stead when that big engine of yours quits while youre trying to enter some narrow reef strewn lagoon pass - a much more likely scenario than it saving you from a lee shore in a gale.

Short tacking to get off a lee shore in a gale? You can't be serious. Practical skills?

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Hogan

I'm pretty sure my Flicka would keep her rudder if she struck a whale at any rate - then again, losing her rudder wont sink her since its keel hung on a set of bulletproof bronze grudions and pintles.

Sounds like a boat with a Napoleon Complex.