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Old 24-04-2006, 23:14   #76
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Good point. I had a feeling that might be the case, but I am no expert on hydraulics. So, that leaves mechanical connections.
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Old 25-04-2006, 10:58   #77
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I think the answer is where petrochemists and geologists have known it would be for the past 50+ years. Hitler ran his war machine without petroleum stocks. They produced fuel from coal and other sources. The same processes, and newer more efficient ones, can produce all the gasoline or diesel that you want, today, while telling the OPEC countires "Go pound sand."
The catch is, the price was and will be some $4-5 per gallon before taxes. I'm not happy to say that I expect to see fuel prices go to that level, but at least then the synthetics can come online competitively and the "shortage" nonsense can end. And OPEC can go pound sand.
The US is estimated to have a 400-year coal reserve, and the synthetic oil processes include several that "distill" poultry/meat wastes and other garbage, conveniently adding to recycling. The solution has already been written, the technology exists, the only thing that hasn't happened is the economics, and for better or worse--that's happening to us now.
Miracle engines, electrics, all sorts of things that haven't been developed yet? They're the long shots. The $5/gallon synthetics already exist. So guess which ones we'll see first? Gasoline that costs more than CocaCola...hmmmm...I wonder which one of those is priced wrong.
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Old 25-04-2006, 12:15   #78
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Hellosailor wrote: 'Gasoline that costs more than CocaCola...hmmmm...I wonder which one of those is priced wrong.' Actually, gasoline that's priced half as costly as bottled water would be a good deal. Talk about price gouging!!!!

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Old 25-04-2006, 12:41   #79
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Well, bottled water varies a lot with where you are. More so than Coke, I think. Supermarket? $1.49-$1.79/gallon for deionized water, top stuff. Perrier or San Pellegrino? $2/litre. Commercial desalinated? Supposed to cost about $4/1000 gallons before the business overhead. I still use a canteen and tap water, don't need to pay a dollar a pint for convenience. I'm not that rich.<G>
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Old 25-04-2006, 19:52   #80
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I agree that synthetic fuel technology is a very likely next step, and I also agree that $4+ per gallon is in our future. From an environmental aspect, this is a realistic approach. As Tristan Jones said, there are three guaranteed methods for which to obtain freedom, walking, biking and sailing. Unfortunately, mechanical propulsion is something that most of us would not do without. That said, most of us can not afford a $2000 a month cruising budget. Since the big dollar guys are persuing the synthetic and alternative fuel ideas, it is up to the independent thinkers to chase down the other alternatives. The ideas I have posted here are just that. Ideas. They are based on logic far more than science. It is the science that will make them work, or prove them impossible. I am sure the ideas I have put out there have been tried, and I gladly accept any explanations as to why they will not work, but somewhere along the lines, I or someone else, will throw an idea out there that has not been tried.
There is a saying, in a hundred years, no one will remember but you and I, and we'll be dead. I would love to be remembered as the guy who changed boat propulsion. Wouldn't you?
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Old 25-04-2006, 19:59   #81
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Sure!!

I would love that bit of historical credit. For inventing something like that,Kai!!
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Old 25-04-2006, 20:12   #82
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Then what is stopping you?
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Old 25-04-2006, 20:18   #83
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What is stopping me, Kai!!!

This!!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Money, get away.
Get a good job with good pay and youíre okay.
Money, itís a gas.
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash.
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think Iíll buy me a football team.

Money, get back.
Iím all right jack keep your hands off of my stack.
Money, itís a hit.
Donít give me that do goody good bullshit.
Iím in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a lear jet.

Money, itís a crime.
Share it fairly but donít take a slice of my pie.
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today.
But if you ask for a raise itís no surprise that theyíre
Giving none away.
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Old 25-04-2006, 20:22   #84
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A great man once said "Each day I wake up, look in the mirror, and tell myself ""Do something amazing today"" "
K, ideas are still free.
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Old 25-04-2006, 20:23   #85
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Well shoot, man!!

Looks like I already lost millions already then. Huh?
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Old 25-04-2006, 22:32   #86
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$4 gas

Yuse are still thinking US prices. Which part of $8 gas in parts of Europe is escaping you? Hop on the plane and take a look at what the locals are using for transportation. Here are some clues: bicycles, motorcycles and 70 mpg or more cars, and that old favourite, public transportation.
If the folks in North America insist on driving large vehicles long distances to work, the demand will continue and the prices will continue to rise. The possible good news is at those prices, new and existing technologies will come to fruition. In the mean time the blue eyed Arabs to the North thank you for your oil, gas and electricity money. Alberta has enough money to give back to their citizens, and they have no sales tax, and a very low flat tax on income. The weather can be lousy, so they bring truckloads of money to BC.
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Old 25-04-2006, 22:43   #87
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That is twice you have mentioned the 70mpg cars. Who is building them, and are they gas, hybrid, or diesel? If the EU can build 70mpg cars, the technology is obviously there. As for commute distance, that is a whole other subject, and I do not really want to get into that here.
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Old 25-04-2006, 23:25   #88
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You can build cars even higher than 70mpg. It just depends on the size, weight and CC rating. Want a little plastic car with a 450cc Diesel to get you around, then that sort of milage and higher is easy to reach. The issues that I think you guy's are not bridging logicaly, is the size. I think you are thinking that you can still have a Corvet or Chrysler Xfire with a 70mpg economy. It ain't ever going to happen nor are you ever going to have the power, unless we have a very different technology. And I mean very different.
By the way, Methanol/Ethanol/Methane producing plants have been around many years. I believe it is a huge resource that is untapped. We have a major city in the South Island that runs a fermentation process on the cities effluent. It produces enough methane to run all the pumping systems which are all engine driven, a fleet of plant vehicles and trucks and have done so for probably 30yrs or more.
I have a mate that owns a Chicken farm. We looked at producing energy from the waste. I built a small trial plant to see if it could be done with our limited knowledge. It worked. I had calculated that we could produce 1500 ltrs of Methanol from the chicken manure a week and this wasn't a huge farm compared to some. Once you got the process started, it produced enough methane to heat the plant and produce the methanol.
I truely believe we can be producing huge amounts of cheap energy form many of these sources.
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Old 25-04-2006, 23:35   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
That is twice you have mentioned the 70mpg cars. Who is building them, and are they gas, hybrid, or diesel? If the EU can build 70mpg cars, the technology is obviously there. As for commute distance, that is a whole other subject, and I do not really want to get into that here.
Here is a link to official U.K. Government agency figures.

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/inf...les.asp#diesel

None of them the conventional cars quite do 70 (68.9 being the best for a Citreon Diesel) but 3 conventional Diesels are better than the much hyped Toyota Prius. These figures are for the imperial 4.55 litre gallon.

Incidentally the Honda Insight (a petrol hybrid of some sort) is the best overall
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Old 26-04-2006, 03:56   #90
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Jacques Cousteau "correct the spelling if you must"He was the man with the solid sail stuff,been useing it for years,Im amazed nobody mentioned him in this respect of the disscussion on solid sails!.But that wasn't the Question put forth at the start anyway,It was about "Fuel efficancy" and a better designed mode of propulsion.From reading this thread I have come to the realization that maybe this is a thing that wont happen in at least 20-30 years,regardless of the interlectuals that abound this forum,and am amazed at how going sailing and the pleasure it brings could be minimalized to the factor of cost in motoring.Yes! Cheaper ways to motor would be good for all concerned,better motors with more omff for ya dollar,even on the motorway with less greenhouse **** going on,but seriously,the wind is there more often than not!Okay,it might not be comming from the direction that is optimal all the time but isn't that what its really all about,Man against the ellements?Fossil fuels and the cost of them are only ellements of the speed driven society in which man has been pushed.Funny how the faster we acheive tecnology the more we try to slow down and regain our roots.The more somthing costs,the cheaper we want to make it.This planet was disscovered by foot,improved by horse furthered by sail and totally encapsulated by tecnology and made the smallest most costly atom in the whole known universe to run and live amoungst.What has come out of this thread has been very enlightening,and as allways ,full of broard minded input and very in-deapth knowledge of what is an will be an intreaging Quest,"A cheaper and more effecient way to power a sailing boat when there is no wind"What makes this Quest so hard is to define what you have!!"A sail boat,A moterised sailboat or sail assisted motor boat.BLOODY VIKINGS!!!"Hey Sven there is no wind!!Row Olaf row."Olaf" Question."There must be a better type oar than this,vone that glides into the vater,smother,cheaper on man power.......
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