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Old 25-08-2014, 08:08   #31
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

I think racist is the wrong word. However, I do think you used a very broad stroke across an entire country that is a stereotype and not true in many circumstances. It would be no different than saying all Toyotas (could pick any brand) are horrible and dangerous because some got recalled. All Americans are uneducated because of the ones you saw on Springer. There are boat builders in China who have been there for decades and produce high quality boats. There are also sloppy ones. As to computers, if they're in the US, they probably came either from China or Mexico. Good or bad.

The issue was engines and motors. This is not an area that I am aware of any high quality production coming from China. That will change one day. Certainly heavy equipment manufacturing has improved there.

So, in my opinion, to say that everything from China is crap is not something I would term "racist" but it is a broad stroke over an entire country that is just not accurate nor fair. I'm sure the vast majority of us are using cell phones and computers and watching televisions and using other items we're quite happy with that were manufactured in China.

Often it's areas of concentration. They haven't concentrated on engines and motors as the cost of getting them to the primary markets offsets the savings. Another example is that there is limited quality dying of fabrics in China. There is knitting, weaving and sewing. So why not dye it? Well, it's a machinery intensive task, not labor intensive. Other industries better justify the investment.
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Old 25-08-2014, 08:25   #32
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

A few years ago I bought a Chinese clone of a Honda inverter generator, only because it was a 'reconditioned' unit at a blowout price, so it was a calculated risk AND not something I needed to rely on. I had to get familiar with its quirks, make some small fixes, and run it in a bit, but now it starts reliably when I pull it out every month or two. We keep it around as occasional portable power or for the very few times the house power is out.

But it's not a Honda.

We have a 30 year old Suzuki 5hp 2-stroke outboard, and that thing is a brick. With light maintenance and ethanol-free gas, it starts first or second pull, and just goes and goes. If money is the issue, I'd buy a good used Suzuki/Yamaha/Honda/Tohatsu outboard over a new off-brand Chinese one.

I will go out on the same limb and state that the quality of many Chinese imports is not as good as from other countries, but the quality is usually there when there's a strong presence and good design from the (foreign) parent brand to enforce it. I expect this will improve with time, particularly when the Chinese consumers themselves demand better quality, as they are starting to do with their affection for foreign brands.
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Old 25-08-2014, 08:38   #33
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

Just to clear the air (and my tarnished character) I do occasionally go to Harbor Freight (All Chinese tool outlet) and buy a tool as an expendable item. Like a set of hole punches. Which in fact lasted the one time. What I have been doing the last few years when I come back to the Mainland US, is to hit yard sales for old American tools. Having a machine shop allows me to sharpen and restore them with little effort.
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Old 25-08-2014, 08:51   #34
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

My problem with the Chinese junk products is that they've essentially run many of the quality products out of business. I grew up doing a lot of carpentry work, and everyone I knew in the construction business was pretty happy with Craftsman tools. Not any more. Craftsman tools are junk, since they started making them in China. Harbour Freight tools are junk. We bought a set of CHinese made "stainless steel" knives, because we really don't have many options here. It was the worst set of knives I could imagine. Too soft to hold an edge, and they started rusting immediately. Junk.

Go to Home Depot or Lowes in the US, and look at what used to be nice US or German made products. Can anyone here name ONE single Chinese made tool that you would ever want to buy again? And former US brands like Vise Grip or Irwin, same name, same specs, but it's junk. THe metals are soft, none of it holds an edge.

And I don't blame the Chinese. The US consumer would rather pay $3 for a hole saw that will probably not last through one job, than pay $20 for one that will last the rest of his life. The Chinese cannot be faulted for selling us what we want. I think they put more money into packaging than they do in product QA, because they've learned that the average US consumer is basically an idiot when it comes to quality.

Again, I don't fault the CHinese for being businessmen. My problem is that while I am willing to pay three times the price for a quality product, I no longer have that choice. It's a choice of Blue colored cheap crap, or yellow colored cheap crap, and the only difference is the packaging. The crap was made by the same people.

Saying it's junk is not racist. It's realist.
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Old 25-08-2014, 09:18   #35
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

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And I don't blame the Chinese. The US consumer would rather pay $3 for a hole saw that will probably not last through one job, than pay $20 for one that will last the rest of his life.
Sadly, we have become an expendable thinking society.
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Old 25-08-2014, 09:45   #36
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Re: new 2 cycle china outboards

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Why do you feel the need to make such statements? It comes across as racist and typical of people who have no actual knowledge. Everything they make? How about most of the components for machinery purportedly made in the good ole US of A. If it wasn't for China the US would be a third world nation right now.
It's not that the Chinese can't make quality products. They can and do for themselves.

It's western companies on a race to the bottom who source cheap crap from China built mostly to western specs. Ie cheap and therefore usually of low quality.

There isn't much on our boat that's made in China. We pay more for marine products with a known provenance.

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Old 25-08-2014, 09:48   #37
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

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Sadly, we have become an expendable thinking society.
I often think when buying something, how long will it last an what does it cost per month , like sunglasses that will break or scratch in a year or a hand held vhf that may go 3 years a life raft, epirb, bottom paint etc,, anything gas or diesel powered if its designed well will far outlast those cheaper versions. We had a 1985 honda 200 4 wheeler that is still running strong. Most 2 year old chinese cheapo 4 wheelers are no longer running. There is a difference, but I think some things have improved. I don't believe the Chinese engines are one of them.

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Old 25-08-2014, 12:49   #38
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

It's the Walmart mentality. Walmart customers shop for price. Walmart shops for price. With their volume, if they can save a few cents per item, that's millions. They will sit with a supplier and say, "What can you do to lower this price to xxx?" And they'll tell them and do it. Factories everywhere make what is designed and follow the product specifications. Ultimately, they make what the consumer wants. Unfortunately, the consumer has spoken loud and clear and said they choose price over quality and service. Not all consumers, but the majority who rule retail. Target is suffering big right now because their strategy was to offer better product than Walmart and others. That strategy no longer works for them. I was CEO of a manufacturing company and we could make some incredible products far better than what was on the general market, but so few customers for them. And we walked away from many deals with huge customers who wanted us to make one more change like their other vendor had. But their product wouldn't pass any of our basic quality tests.

As to tools, I know little, but the real differences are the materials. We think steel is steel, but then we realize that's just not true. What quality steel and what percentage and what other metals. Those who use tools to make their living try to get better. But the market is driven by volume. Walmart vs. Sears vs. Lowes vs. Home Depot. That's where the volume is and they're competing on price.
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Old 25-08-2014, 15:33   #39
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

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I wouldn't think any gasoline engine would make a good backup for a gasoline engine. None of them start and run well if they have been sitting unused for a long time. I suppose if you alternate them on a weekly or monthly basis it might work. Propane would be a better backup but I agree with you that the money would be better spent buying and maintaining a good, reliable engine in the first place.

A set of oars is my backup.
This does not agree with our experience either. Modern 2 stroke outboards are incredibly reliable (unlike the "Hansen Sea-Cows" of yesteryear). The longest that we have left an engine was 7 months, and it (Yamaha 15) started up immediately, even with the old fuel left in the tank.

I wouldn't buy an unknown cheap outboard for a cruising dinghy. Especially if the vendor said that it needed 25:1 fuel. That strongly hints of poor design or materials or both. Cruisers do depend upon their dinks and outboards for so many crucial activities. Rowing, especially in an inflatable, is a fall back that does not work so well in real life when cruising in the woop-woop... but we do carry oars at all times!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 25-08-2014, 15:58   #40
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

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This does not agree with our experience either. Modern 2 stroke outboards are incredibly reliable (unlike the "Hansen Sea-Cows" of yesteryear). The longest that we have left an engine was 7 months, and it (Yamaha 15) started up immediately, even with the old fuel left in the tank.

I wouldn't buy an unknown cheap outboard for a cruising dinghy. Especially if the vendor said that it needed 25:1 fuel. That strongly hints of poor design or materials or both. Cruisers do depend upon their dinks and outboards for so many crucial activities. Rowing, especially in an inflatable, is a fall back that does not work so well in real life when cruising in the woop-woop... but we do carry oars at all times!

Cheers,

Jim
Thought on undependable (cheap) dinghy motor:

In some ways it's worse if your dinghy engine breaks down than your boat. If your boat breaks down, you always have your dinghy. But if your dinghy breaks down you may be far away from your boat.
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Old 25-08-2014, 16:01   #41
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

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........ Modern 2 stroke outboards are incredibly reliable .....
Yes, but where in the USA can you buy one? The answer is, the EPA has decreed that you can't.

Well there are the Evenrude computerized 2 stroks but not for a dinghy.
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Old 25-08-2014, 16:06   #42
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

My currently-held opinion is that Chinese metallurgy is not very good. So the more dependent on quality of metallurgy it is, the more likely a made-in-China product is to have issues.

Rocna anchors would be a fine example.
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Old 25-08-2014, 16:15   #43
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

The poor OP started this thread asking about China made 2 strokes, and came away with a 4 year degree in political correctness.
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Old 25-08-2014, 16:15   #44
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New 2 Cycle China Outboards

Mis-post, have no idea how
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Old 25-08-2014, 16:39   #45
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Re: New 2 Cycle China Outboards

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Yes, but where in the USA can you buy one?
Well, not being in the US, I dunno! We can still buy 2 strokes in many parts of the world, and even though I'm a Yank, the Aussies were glad to sell me one!

Jim
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