Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-07-2015, 04:43   #1
Registered User
 
Mocking's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Botany Bay,Sydney, Australia
Boat: South Coast 36
Posts: 93
Is this reasonable ??

The motor is a YAMAHA ME180 HE 36HP; installed in 1989 has 300 hours. Been serviced regularly. It went in to have a straight forward service. Which should have taken a week. Due to some residue it appeared that it may have had leaks around the heads so the mechanic recommended that the heads come off for an inspection. It all seemed OK BUT then the caskets needed to be remade.
Finally, 2 1/2 months, yes months latter it is ready and I asked for the invoice. There was $1,154 worth of parts and $4,633 worth of labour which at $100 (ex GST) is 46.33 hours of work. Given I was originally quoted around $100o to $1500 for the service and then another day to do the heads, this seems excessive.
I go to pick up the boat and do an engine check and rivers of water soon start to cascade out of the heads.
The engine oil is also black, did not appear to be changed. I asked the mechanic and he said it should have?? It was on my invoice BUT he couldn't explain why it was black.
He said he was going to check it all and advise me by Tuesday morning. I finally speak to him Wednesday morning and he tells me that he found the motor manufactures book on the boat and that they had not tensioned the bolts on the heads correctly. So they did this and did another motor check. The leak initially had gone BUT after a while returned not as severe BUT did return. The issue with the motor oil has still not been answered. They are now going to take the head off again to ensure that the gaskets were installed correctly. But they can not do this until next Monday, so in effect they will have now had the boat for 3 months. And although I have asked that the hours on the invoice be checked, that still has not been resolved.

Does this seem to be fair?
Before the service.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20150420_085324.jpg
Views:	290
Size:	422.9 KB
ID:	104888  
__________________

__________________
Mocking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 04:55   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,382
Re: Is this reasonable ??

From your description of the events it sounds like you have been had. Poor job, outrageous over billing.


However, from the photo it does appear that there was a problem with the engine. Just sounds like the repair job was worse than the original problem.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 05:06   #3
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Mechanic says "It should have." ???

When I read that, the immediate thought I had was that the engine was repaired (or not) by a shop with multiple people working on the boats and "someone" did not do something right.

If the repair facility has more than one mechanic (and/or assistants) then perhaps the problem is the work that the "mechanic" said he would do was then passed down to someone else to complete (???) and they did not do what they were supposed to do or do it correctly.

Of course this is just a guess, but I have seen that happen in service industry (e.g. auto shops) before. Less important jobs get passed down to lesser skilled "techs" who may not know or be less attentive or experienced.

I would look for a "sign off" on each step and each repair initialed by some ONE tech or with clear responsibility for WHO did the repair and they should kNOW if it was done.

Also, given that the boat/engine has been in for several weeks, it is possible that people just forgot.

Good luck.
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 05:14   #4
Registered User
 
Mocking's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Botany Bay,Sydney, Australia
Boat: South Coast 36
Posts: 93
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Thank you SKIPMAC, I agree.

Steady Hand , that was also my thought that is why I have asked the proprietor to check the motor himself, whilst he advises that his team are all appropriately licensed, their care factor may not be the same.

After service pic, you can see the water running.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	after service 1A.jpg
Views:	244
Size:	401.7 KB
ID:	104892  
__________________
Mocking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 06:06   #5
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 466
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Sad that people have no more pride in there work than that? the price is not bad if they were flown in on a holiday weekend
__________________
sartorst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 06:50   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,880
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Next time, make a requirement that if the cost will exceed the estimate by some percentage (maybe 10-20%), they have to talk to you and get approval before proceeding.

The oil and leak is questionable but without an explaination of what the original service was or what they found when they opened it up, no idea if that is a reasonable cost.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 08:01   #7
Registered User
 
lonesoldier0408's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Boat: Luger, Southwind, 21
Posts: 358
Re: Is this reasonable ??

This is why I'm looking into electric motors. They have a car making crazy power on the track. And this is on a, "Sailboat." Or then there's the whole, "I must be the professional to do the most hated/(expensive) repairs on my vessel myself," school.
I know in the end you'll have to pay it out, get another mechanic to fix it, have that mechanic testify in court against the other service provider to recover part of your loss. They should have insurance, but again you are still looking at court.
__________________
lonesoldier0408 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 08:52   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,880
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonesoldier0408 View Post
This is why I'm looking into electric motors. They have a car making crazy power on the track. And this is on a, "Sailboat." Or then there's the whole, "I must be the professional to do the most hated/(expensive) repairs on my vessel myself," school.
I know in the end you'll have to pay it out, get another mechanic to fix it, have that mechanic testify in court against the other service provider to recover part of your loss. They should have insurance, but again you are still looking at court.
Because the local electric motor repair guy (they have those right?), won't just tell you, that it needs a new $2000 mother board after spending a $1000 poking at it with a soldering iron.

Then again, where do you get no cost no hassle free electricity from? If you want similar capabilities, you are looking at a generator and they have motors prone to the same issues.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 09:02   #9
Registered User
 
hamburking's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kingston Ont Canada
Boat: Looking for my next boat!
Posts: 2,149
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Oh man, any way you look at it, it seems you are so screwed.
Bad repair. Way too expensive. I think you are looking at court.
However, court doesn't fix your engine.
There is no excuse for the time delay, thats just bad service.

I had a similar mechanic here: NILES LESLIE (LESLIE MARINE). He changes the business name every couple of years to avoid all the lawsuits against him. He would give low estimates, then "find" all sorts of other trouble. He worked on my transmission, and after there was a major fuel leak. Coincidence....NOT. Hours were outrageous. When I asked for a breakdown, the hours included driving time to the marina, hand washing time, tool cleanup time, time for walking back and forth to his truck for more tools and parts, shop cleanup, and other such made up bs.

Is there any way you can just get your engine back and try again with a reputable mechanic? BTW, a good, fair, reasonable mechanic is like gold. They don't need to advertise, they have modest trucks, and they fix things fast and well, so they can get paid and move on to the next job.

I know none of this helps your problem. I hope you are able to get your engine fixed and resolve the billing in a fair manner.
__________________
hamburking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 09:12   #10
Registered User
 
hamburking's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kingston Ont Canada
Boat: Looking for my next boat!
Posts: 2,149
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Because the local electric motor repair guy (they have those right?), won't just tell you, that it needs a new $2000 mother board after spending a $1000 poking at it with a soldering iron.

Then again, where do you get no cost no hassle free electricity from? If you want similar capabilities, you are looking at a generator and they have motors prone to the same issues.
A circuit board is easy to replace by just about anyone.
Electric motors have only 1 moving part.
A diesel has hundreds of moving parts.
A HUGE feature of electric motors is that they require almost no maintenance or repair...there is just nothing to break (they don't need to be winterized either). This is a HUGE reason why auto manufacturers are against electric...they make all their money at the dealerships doing tune-ups, maintenance, oil changes, etc....all that would go away.

As for generators to run electric motors...they don't need to be attached to the hull or driveshaft. So a small generator (like the panda diesel genset) can easily be removed for servicing or replacement.

Electric solves so many of the issues with engines, and brings almost no new issues. The big ships have seen the light, and many ferries and military vessels have already made the switch... around here the Wolfe Islander III, a 55 car ferry is all diesel electric. Also the HMS Kingston is diesel electric too. There are other advantages too...like multiple small generators for backup and redundancy, or multiple electric engines. I find the whole field to be terribly exciting, and can't understand why more boats haven't gone electric...especially new boats.
__________________
hamburking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 10:01   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Anacortes
Boat: Sea Ray,SundancerDA,30
Posts: 65
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Have a question, I have a Chris Craft 45.7ft x 13.0 ft draft is about 3.7 ft. she ways 18,600 approx, dry wet should be about 23,000 including all gear and provisions,
What is a good electric eng x2 for this yacht? I have been looking for and into electric eng's, twins, but all the info I've been finding doesn't say how much fuel it will use at 6kts steady.
Mfg says its a 28kts, cruise at 11kts If i can keep these figures it'll be great.
i have 2 454's in her now and a 65amp gen all gas.
any info?
__________________
CC45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 10:20   #12
Registered User
 
leftbrainstuff's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco and Australia
Boat: Liberty 458
Posts: 1,979
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mocking View Post
The motor is a YAMAHA ME180 HE 36HP; installed in 1989 has 300 hours. Been serviced regularly. It went in to have a straight forward service. Which should have taken a week. Due to some residue it appeared that it may have had leaks around the heads so the mechanic recommended that the heads come off for an inspection. It all seemed OK BUT then the caskets needed to be remade.
Finally, 2 1/2 months, yes months latter it is ready and I asked for the invoice. There was $1,154 worth of parts and $4,633 worth of labour which at $100 (ex GST) is 46.33 hours of work. Given I was originally quoted around $100o to $1500 for the service and then another day to do the heads, this seems excessive.
I go to pick up the boat and do an engine check and rivers of water soon start to cascade out of the heads.
The engine oil is also black, did not appear to be changed. I asked the mechanic and he said it should have?? It was on my invoice BUT he couldn't explain why it was black.
He said he was going to check it all and advise me by Tuesday morning. I finally speak to him Wednesday morning and he tells me that he found the motor manufactures book on the boat and that they had not tensioned the bolts on the heads correctly. So they did this and did another motor check. The leak initially had gone BUT after a while returned not as severe BUT did return. The issue with the motor oil has still not been answered. They are now going to take the head off again to ensure that the gaskets were installed correctly. But they can not do this until next Monday, so in effect they will have now had the boat for 3 months. And although I have asked that the hours on the invoice be checked, that still has not been resolved.

Does this seem to be fair?
Before the service.
Seems like another case of gouging and incompetence. Did you get a quote initially? If so this should correlate with the invoice. It is reasonable to expect to be contacted prior to any scope change unless you gave him carte blanche.

The admission of incompetence, not torquing head bolts correctly, definitely gives you an out.

If you have posession don't pay a cent or any more if you have paid part of the bill.

Unless you wish to go the kegal route cut your losses.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
leftbrainstuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 11:24   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Campbell River, BC
Boat: Union 36
Posts: 81
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mocking View Post
he tells me that he found the motor manufactures book on the boat and that they had not tensioned the bolts on the heads correctly. So they did this and did another motor check.
What were they thinking? Torquing head bolts without proper spec? I can understand if stuck in the far corners without access to information and as a last resort. Hope & a prayer maybe but the gamble clearly did not work out for them....and unfortunately for you either by the sounds of it.
__________________
Wulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 11:52   #14
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,382
Re: Is this reasonable ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC45 View Post
Have a question, I have a Chris Craft 45.7ft x 13.0 ft draft is about 3.7 ft. she ways 18,600 approx, dry wet should be about 23,000 including all gear and provisions,
What is a good electric eng x2 for this yacht? I have been looking for and into electric eng's, twins, but all the info I've been finding doesn't say how much fuel it will use at 6kts steady.
Mfg says its a 28kts, cruise at 11kts If i can keep these figures it'll be great.
i have 2 454's in her now and a 65amp gen all gas.
any info?
Electric will be totally impractical in this boat unless you will never go more that 20-30 miles from the dock and no faster than 6-7 kts or you install a very large generator to run the thing.

To run a 45' Chris any faster than hull speed will take a more power than any electric system I know of. Example. 200 HP would take a 150 KW electric motor. It would take a barge full of batteries to supply that much electricity. Or a 300 kilowatt generator.

If your satisfied keeping the speed at 6-8 kts then you could probably get by with a 75-100 kW generator and correspondingly smaller electric motors. Still huge and VERY expensive.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 13:00   #15
Senior Cruiser
 
grantmc's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Wellington, New Zealand 41 degrees south
Boat: Raven 26
Posts: 260
Send a message via Skype™ to grantmc
Re: Is this reasonable ?? Answer NO!!!

That’s a sad tale and will cost you well over $6,000 with GST. Now having a second go at taking the head off again for inspection and re-tensioning won’t be cheap either. And like others have said all you can do is pay and keep paying. Obviously your relationship with the mechanic has somewhat broken surely down but time to go see the owner and have a bit of a scrum down.

Unfortunately too it’s not an uncommon story, not just with boats but cars and houses too. Many trades people aren’t great communicators. Also they’re unlikely to look at their labour and parts totals at the end of each day’s work to see how it compares with their original quote to you. Probably don’t have systems to do so anyway. And often times the quote is really just a vague guesstimate as it seems have been in your case, to have a 50% variance.

In requesting the original ‘service’ what was that to entail? Your post says the original service was to cost between $1,000 and $1,500. That is actually a very high cost service, especially given the incredibly low hours of engine use. A regular service isn’t much more than change the oil, grease appropriately, replace filters, anodes, impellor, check and tighten belts and give her a run. Should be all over in a morning and $500 tops. If mechanic finds (or suspects) something serious is amiss they should always go back to the owner before undertaking further work. They don’t want the issue you’ve ended up with any more than you the customer.

And obviously black engine oil means that either the oil or an oil filter wasn’t replaced. There’s no getting away from that fact. All the filters and oil have to be changed again. I guess you can at least be grateful the oil isn’t grey. Similarly not checking the pressure required before tightening the head down speaks volumes. Surprises me they even admitted that to you.

So I am wondering did you both suspect there was something dodgy with the motor? Was engine even running? Or was there other work to do? Did you ask them to investigate the leak or other issue? Leaks from the proximity of the head gasket are usually pretty serious and cost serious coin to fix. Leak in the pictures suggests a cracked head or worse, at best a dead head gasket. Was the head checked when it was off before? Were there signs of water ingress into the cylinders? Salt water plays merry hell on head gaskets.

You mention they’ve now found the owner’s manual on the boat. Why didn’t you make that available from the outset? To minimise the cost I usually also pre buy the parts and oils. I hate the thought of an expensive mechanic wasting time chasing parts, and then often adding a margin as well.

Time I guess for you to make a decision as to whether to carry on or go somewhere else. The dirty engine oil and lack of care in torquing the head, (not to mention the evident leaks in the photo) says it all to me.
__________________

__________________
Grant Mc
The cure for everything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea.
grantmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reasonable Terry Fallis Pacific & South China Sea 40 31-07-2009 11:32
Hi All, Are my Dreams reasonable DreamingofaCruise Meets & Greets 14 19-10-2007 20:33
Is this a reasonable plan? jkirstein General Sailing Forum 15 11-09-2007 05:27
Measuring for Sails - Reasonable Fees? markpj23 General Sailing Forum 5 09-01-2006 23:09



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.