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Old 29-12-2014, 12:33   #46
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
To figger the amount of potential water in the exhaust hose, measure the total length X's the ID / 3.14 = cubic inch / 231 = gallons. Now consult the muffler size.

The horizontal portion after the the lift is a deal killer as mentioned, it will hold and collect water, which will cause back pressure. Use a manometer to measure the back pressure.

The water lock muffler is the reverse of a water pipe, if this is also hooked up wrong, it could flood the engine when sitting.

For salt to crystallize in the manifold, it would have to be present when the manifold exceeds 135 F.

Lloyd
The hose is not filled with water... mostly exhaust gas which forces water out along with it.... does depend on the engine to some extent... some seem to just spray out water other seem to gulp it out in timed bursts...
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Old 29-12-2014, 12:34   #47
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

Never mind, I'll assume that is the feed-water to the drip-less.

Also is the anti-siphon is plugged? A fault in the elbow, could allow water into the exhaust manifold in small amount, and on shut down it would be hot enough to precipitate out salt, and cook off the water thereby not hydro-locking the cylinders.

Lloyd

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Also, what is that Tee with the small hose to/from on the Anti Siphon? And to which side of the is it in or out?

It mos definitely should not be there.

Lloyd

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Old 29-12-2014, 12:39   #48
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

On long runs the hose and the muffler fill with water, and then a big push of water comes out, this cause bad back pressure, and is a sign of a bad install.

When installed properly, the exhaust gas pressure is enough to keep ahead of any water build up in the system, and it comes out the end in a mixture of spray and air, maybe even a trickle to go with it.

Lloyd

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
The hose is not filled with water... mostly exhaust gas which forces water out along with it.... does depend on the engine to some extent... some seem to just spray out water other seem to gulp it out in timed bursts...
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Old 29-12-2014, 15:22   #49
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

To quote Dave Gerr on water lift installations, "The safe rule of thumb is that the muffler canister should have 130 percent more volume than the entire lift line, from the canister to the highest point"
He also mentions that one should avoid a lift line run greater than 30 times the exhaust-line diameter from the engine. For a 2.5" exhaust line this would be about 75 inches. If you want to go longer then increase the diameter of the exhaust hose .
Greg
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Old 30-12-2014, 18:15   #50
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

Yes Lloyd the tee feeds the dripless shaft seal.

Yanmar tested the back pressure on install before certifying the install for warranty purposes. It passed so I have to assume that it is okay in that regard. This install was done in Auckland, New Zealand. These guys have a lot of sailboat experience. I would hope they know better than me.

The exhaust spray comes out in a combination of mist and burps that I would estimate are about a cup or so in volume each.

The engine wasn't flooded. That's what's had me so puzzled. How does that much salt get into the manifold without flooding the cylinders. There was a small amount of salt and sludge on top of the pistons but it did not flood. Salt may have fallen in when we removed the manifold?

To further baffle my mind the elbow itself was not clogged nor contained a significant amount of salt.

Gasket between elbow and manifold looked OK when it came off. Could be the problem? Would explain salt in manifold but not elbow?

S/V Thin Wolf
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Old 30-12-2014, 19:43   #51
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

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...There was a small amount of salt and sludge on top of the pistons but it did not flood. Salt may have fallen in when we removed the manifold?...
Got past the open exhaust valve.
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Old 30-12-2014, 19:48   #52
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

How much salt water would it take to precipitate out the amount of salt you had in the manifold?
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Old 30-12-2014, 19:56   #53
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

Is a Kelly Peterson 44 a one-off? If not,
have you seen the engine set-up in others?

Still say that exhaust/muffler layout looks
wonky.
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Old 30-12-2014, 22:01   #54
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

@DeepFrz I'd say a lot. There is at least a cup of salt I'd say.

@jongleur check out www.kp44.org

S/V Thin Wolf
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Old 30-12-2014, 23:02   #55
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

Zing:

That's an impressively extensive website for
Kelly Petersons.

In a rudimentary search of the site, I only found
one page with anything to do with the exhaust.

I'd still be interested in what others without the
problem have done in that same compartment
with the same engine.

That accumulator/water lift/muffler just looks
small and in the wrong place with too long of
runs before and after it.

I hope you figure the problem out.

Please let us know when you do.
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Old 31-12-2014, 07:36   #56
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

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Originally Posted by Zingaro69 View Post
...There is at least a cup of salt...
Sounds like that cylinder had been FULL of sea water.
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Old 31-12-2014, 10:57   #57
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

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Originally Posted by Zingaro69 View Post
Yes Lloyd the tee feeds the dripless shaft seal.

Yanmar tested the back pressure on install before certifying the install for warranty purposes. It passed so I have to assume that it is okay in that regard. This install was done in Auckland, New Zealand. These guys have a lot of sailboat experience. I would hope they know better than me.

The exhaust spray comes out in a combination of mist and burps that I would estimate are about a cup or so in volume each.

The engine wasn't flooded. That's what's had me so puzzled. How does that much salt get into the manifold without flooding the cylinders. There was a small amount of salt and sludge on top of the pistons but it did not flood. Salt may have fallen in when we removed the manifold?

To further baffle my mind the elbow itself was not clogged nor contained a significant amount of salt.

Gasket between elbow and manifold looked OK when it came off. Could be the problem? Would explain salt in manifold but not elbow?

S/V Thin Wolf
This is sounding more & more similar to my experience (post #38), although I'm not sure that helps you given all the variables.

Exhaust configuration done by a (presumably competent) Westerbeke dealer;

Exh. elbow was fine but salt residue seized the #4 cylinder;

Salt residue but no water in engine;

Exhaust valve likely open when engine last shut down;

Likely scenario of saltwater "misting" back into the cylinder over a long period of time due to too much back pressure. This was attributed to insufficient hose ID when 70hp engine replaced with 80hp engine, and too small a muffler.

Along with replacing the engine, the remedy was to replace all the exhaust hose with larger ID, install a larger muffler, use a Vetus siphon break at the top of the engine room loop that is largely immune to clogging, and various other exh. hose configurations to eliminate any further chance of back pressure.

FWIW, my insurance co. paid the lion's share of the work after their surveyor determined the seized engine was the result of a design defect in the dealer's installation. Given that you had your exhaust set-up checked over & tested by a Yanmar dealer, hopefully you have some recourse.
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Old 31-12-2014, 11:32   #58
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

Well clearly there is a problem, If you don't want the same problem after it goes back together, then you better change something.
Start by reading and understand Tonys exhaust tips.
Tony's Tips - Information about Marine Diesel Engines and Boats from Tony Athens

I'll guarantee you its your setup, I would never install as your is.

Lloyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zingaro69 View Post
Yes Lloyd the tee feeds the dripless shaft seal.

Yanmar tested the back pressure on install before certifying the install for warranty purposes. It passed so I have to assume that it is okay in that regard. This install was done in Auckland, New Zealand. These guys have a lot of sailboat experience. I would hope they know better than me.

The exhaust spray comes out in a combination of mist and burps that I would estimate are about a cup or so in volume each.

The engine wasn't flooded. That's what's had me so puzzled. How does that much salt get into the manifold without flooding the cylinders. There was a small amount of salt and sludge on top of the pistons but it did not flood. Salt may have fallen in when we removed the manifold?

To further baffle my mind the elbow itself was not clogged nor contained a significant amount of salt.

Gasket between elbow and manifold looked OK when it came off. Could be the problem? Would explain salt in manifold but not elbow?

S/V Thin Wolf
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Old 31-12-2014, 15:17   #59
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

In order to deposit a cup of salt you would have to precipitate out all the salt in approximately 7 or 8 liters of salt water. The salt had to have been building up over the installed life of the engine.
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Old 31-12-2014, 16:04   #60
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Re: How to destroy a new $20K diesel

The exhaust hose coming out the mixing elbow down and under the engine to enter the side of the water lift looks ok to me. That the exhaust hose coming out of the top of the water lift does not go straight up to highest point then slope back to outlet is problematic and should be corrected. But for this to be a problem you need enough water in the exhaust system to not only fill the muffler but the exhaust hose leading up to the engine, a lot of water. My gut feeling is that there is not enough water in the circuit to cause this problem.
Take a real close look at your heat exchanger. Remove the end cap of the heat exchanger and look for a crack that let's raw water get to that exhaust port. Anyway to pressure test the raw water section of the heat exchanger? Maybe using a garden hose being careful not to overdue the pressure. See if it leaks into the exhaust port?
As far as being baffled on how your engine could run like this. There is a article this month in good old boat about a very clogged mixing elbow, yet the engine ran well until it didn't.
Good luck. C


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