Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-06-2018, 19:53   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rhode Island
Boat: Tayana FD-12
Posts: 704
Images: 6
Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

I was hoping to launch the boat soon after about 18 month refit, but to my surprise engine is seized.

At the time of purchase, back in September 2016, I had the engine survey done, and oil sent for analysis. We also motored for about 5 miles to a haul out facility. Everything seemed pretty good.

In November 2016, i had the yard here in RI "Winterize" the engine. but the manager said that they could not run the engine since it was out of the water. So instead they ran the antifreeze through raw water side.

At that time I was swamped with other boat projects and i assumed the yard knew what they were doing. Its one of the Brewer Yacht yards.

Fast forward to Friday. i had just brought back the starter and alternator from the shop, I had to replace starter switch, add new wires, bring battery close to the starter etc, etc... and I go to start the engine and it wont turn.

So two days later, I am finding that cylinders were full of the "Pink Stuff", probably Polypropylene Glycol. I guess the antifreeze the yard winterized with. When i took the elbow, about 2 gallons came out of the riser. and this is a 3" exhaust.

So at this point I paid dearly for a dock for the summer, and I would like to get the engine going, or at least find out if that can be possible without further dismantling the major components.

I had initially sprayed lubricants (seafoam) etc in the cylinders and after letting it sit for about 24h tried the 5 foot prybar with an 1-1/2" socket at the shaft. No luck.

Today I got the head off, and I also took the Down angle drive off. This is a weird box. i cannot see anything about these online.

I read few places that sometimes springs on the damper plate would crack and that would seize the engine. Thats why I went dismantling the back end.

When the head came off cylinders were full of pink stuff mixed with seafoam lubricant. I cleaned all that up and sprayed some more lubricant.

I am showing a pic below of my Walter down-anlge drive and the plate that links it to the flywheel. I don't think I have the springs since this palte already has rubber dampeners. Does anyone know if i should take that plate off the get to the flywheel and see if there is a damper plate?

How hard can I tap on the pistons? I've tried few times with a wooden 2x4, but not that much.

I guess I will cut out a better wooden piece to hit the pistons with. i understand that piston edges is where I can put the most force.


Tomorrow i plan to call American Diesel and also add Marvel mystery oil to the mix and let that sit for few days.

As you can see, I am throwing a "Kitchen sink" at it, as they say. Ive read quite a few seized ford lehman threads, and I am still confused is it the damper plate springs or the pink stuff?

I cant say I am an expert at diesels but I did rebuild a Westerbeake 4-108 back in 2012. I just dont know if these cylinders look beyond something that can run again.

Btw, it was relatively easy to tear it down to this point. 3 hours, and by myself. Included a hoist for that down angle drive/tranny. Which is probably 200lbs


One more thing...please spare me from get a new engine comments. I am looking for help getting to root cause as to what seized a perfectly good running Ford lehman, and if this is beyond honing/repair.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20180624_182705.jpg
Views:	203
Size:	419.9 KB
ID:	172380   Click image for larger version

Name:	20180624_171518.jpg
Views:	183
Size:	384.3 KB
ID:	172381  

Click image for larger version

Name:	20180624_171511.jpg
Views:	173
Size:	331.3 KB
ID:	172382   Click image for larger version

Name:	20180624_173557.jpg
Views:	181
Size:	414.9 KB
ID:	172385  

Click image for larger version

Name:	20161018_181905.jpg
Views:	169
Size:	408.5 KB
ID:	172386  
__________________

phorvati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-06-2018, 20:08   #2
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 22,324
Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

Id say before you go any further, find a Laywer and talk to them, it seems pretty clear that as long as your telling the truth, and I have no reason to doubt it, that the yard is responsible.
However you need to talk to a lawyer to see if you have a case, and or talk to the yard. If they are a reputable establishment, maybe they will send a mechanic to verify your story.
I think they should be fixing this, not you, but I have no idea of the likelihood of that happening, perhaps a lawyer would.

My gut feeling is you will have to hope that the yard will live up to their mistake.
After that come back here and we will tell you what to do to fix the engine if you have to. I would pour motor oil or MMO in the bores to try to prevent any further damage, I believe your allowed to do that, and should, your negligent if you dont, I think.
Seafoam is not a lubricant, nor is it a penetrating oil or a rust preventative.
However MMO or Marvel Mystery oil is all three.
Im afraid though by completely disassembling the motor you have lost your evidence. But I am no Lawyer, you should see one and take their advice, not anyone you read on the Internet, cause we wont be there when it counts.
__________________

a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-06-2018, 20:36   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
SV Bacchus's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Stuart, FL
Boat: Leopard 42 OV
Posts: 1,147
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

Agree with A64 as to contacting the yard and seeing if they will own up.

As far as your efforts to free the engine I think you are taking the right steps except I'm not keen on tapping on the pistons. Take that with a grain of salt as I'm only a shade tree mechanic, maybe it is OK but I wouldn't do it.

Did you drain the oil to see what was in the pan? Might be some evidence there. If you mentioned it in your OP I might have missed it. If so, pls disregard!
__________________
SV Bacchus - spreading libations world wide, via sailboat, to help the "up tight" relax and enjoy life!
SV Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2018, 02:30   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: australia
Posts: 523
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

Some good advice in previous posts. Number one I would be giving the yard a chance to come good life is full of surprises they may come good as over circulation of coolant appears to have caused your issue. If your Trunnion drive feels tight with out excessive back lash all is good. Ps, COVER those fuel pump delivery valve holders up or your costs will really blow out.
shakey doug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2018, 07:03   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rhode Island
Boat: Tayana FD-12
Posts: 704
Images: 6
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

I got her freed up. It wasn't tapping on the pistons. Starter got her turning. Ever so lightly and then bang, she was free. i guess starter has the flywheel diameter advantage, while my little socket on the shaft needs a lot more force.



I will mention something to the yard. At this point. I could go with the lawyer route, but do i wanna spend the peak summer weeks waiting on all that crap to go through, or do i wanna go enjoy it with the kids and wife.



I had the Injection pump outlets covered. I guess i must have taken it off for the pic.

Anyhow, i'll post a pic of cylinders. They appear to look really good.



Oil on the dipstick looks fine. i did not drain the oil yet.



Anyone know where I can get the rubber standoffs for that damper plate?

Trunnion drive?
phorvati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2018, 09:41   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rhode Island
Boat: Tayana FD-12
Posts: 704
Images: 6
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

I just spoke to brian at american diesel. This one was marinized by Northeast Ford. So its a NE90. Not an SP90. Lovely. Even more difficult to peel off who did what. I guess the flywheel was adapted for those ruber bushings
phorvati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2018, 09:55   #7
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 22,324
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

When you get her back together run it for 5 mins or so and change the oil.
Id do another oil change after she got good and hot, but that is likely overly cautious.
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2018, 10:52   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
SV Bacchus's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Stuart, FL
Boat: Leopard 42 OV
Posts: 1,147
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
When you get her back together run it for 5 mins or so and change the oil.
Id do another oil change after she got good and hot, but that is likely overly cautious.


Given how cheap oil is, overly cautious is not a bad thing!
__________________
SV Bacchus - spreading libations world wide, via sailboat, to help the "up tight" relax and enjoy life!
SV Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2018, 12:49   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rhode Island
Boat: Tayana FD-12
Posts: 704
Images: 6
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

I plan to hone the walls. I was given advice to use non chlorinated break cleaner. Wire brush the piston tops, hone, and suck the particles with shop vac. Also use compressed air to make sure cylinders are "hospital clean" before head goes back.
PO left the head gasket in a package with all the spares. Might have been on the TODO-list.

Anyhow, i am having a very hard time finding those bushings. Walter is saying they need a serial off of the down angle drive box. She kept calling it a V-drive, and its not. It does not look like any schematic shown on their website. Its a custom mod, to my understanding either done by NE Ford back when they were in business or maybe walter. So engine is sitting flat because the top pipe is already cutting into the floorboards. So it had no chance to be on an angle. Therefore this down angle box. I am showing the pic of the guts of it. (trunnion drive) and the 2part bushings. 1/2" bolts that plate hole diameter 1-1/8" for rubber. overall length of the bushing is 1"
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DownAngleBushings.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	404.9 KB
ID:	172422  
phorvati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2018, 16:06   #10
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Oregon to Alaska
Boat: Wheeler Shipyard 83' ex USCG
Posts: 2,180
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

The force of ignition is much greater than tapping on the pistons. Working on non-sleeved engines, in the past I have placed a wood block on the piston tops and "tapped" it with a sledge hammer. Along with a rust breaker, I tapped each piston and broke it loose in a few minutes.
Another method that has worked is to use a powerful 1" drive impact wrench on the front pulley nut. Impact wrenching usually breaks loose rusted bolts where a breaker bar just shears off the bolt head.
In all cases the engines still ran. Most with some loss of compression and oil burning. But the engines ran for hundreds of hours afterward.
With sleeved engines I think it's better to do an overhaul. Taking the head off is much of the disassembly work required to overhaul.
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2018, 16:47   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 318
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
The force of ignition is much greater than tapping on the pistons. Working on non-sleeved engines, in the past I have placed a wood block on the piston tops and "tapped" it with a sledge hammer. Along with a rust breaker, I tapped each piston and broke it loose in a few minutes.
Another method that has worked is to use a powerful 1" drive impact wrench on the front pulley nut. Impact wrenching usually breaks loose rusted bolts where a breaker bar just shears off the bolt head.
In all cases the engines still ran. Most with some loss of compression and oil burning. But the engines ran for hundreds of hours afterward.
With sleeved engines I think it's better to do an overhaul. Taking the head off is much of the disassembly work required to overhaul.
As he says,most with some loss of compression & oil burning! The life of said motor has been shortened for sure! I would be wondering if it was thr rings that rusted in the cylinder & stuck it, (most likely ) or if the crank was stuck,very important what comes out of the oil pan... most likely they got coolant in the cylinders and then that rusted the Rings in the cylinders and no matter what you do that rust is going to have an effect on the compression. Usually those rings after something like that kind of stick and stay collapsed into the piston not to mention the rusty stuff that you can't get out that after the engine is started goes up and down in that cylinder and just scratches it up and will severely shorten the life of the engine.. I've done this and they will run and then you just milk it along and I've also done it and then the engine have so little compression that it would barely run! It just depends upon how severe the Rings are rusted in collapse in the Pistons. After reassembling it I would want to do a compression test and that should give some kind of an idea what you have. I would probably want to do that compression test after it has run for a few days or at least some time anyway.
Kita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-06-2018, 19:27   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Summerstown Ontario Canada
Posts: 302
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorvati View Post
I got her freed up. It wasn't tapping on the pistons. Starter got her turning. Ever so lightly and then bang, she was free. i guess starter has the flywheel diameter advantage, while my little socket on the shaft needs a lot more force.

Anyhow, i'll post a pic of cylinders. They appear to look really good.

Trunnion drive?
We had two engines submerged for two months and when they came out, they were started, and then left for a year unattended. They seized up. Removed the injectors, added fuel, let then sit for a while and then we were able to turn them over. Got them started and the rings had seized. We ran them and oil was just coming out the exhaust... oil all over. One mechanic came over and had a look. He said, "Run the engine above idle and give it a quick rev up many times. This will eventually free up the rings. Sure enough this is what happened and we ran for six hours, one hour at a time and now all is good.
seabreez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2018, 07:57   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rhode Island
Boat: Tayana FD-12
Posts: 704
Images: 6
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

So i found the isolation mounts. Vibrationmounts.com. out of NY. Its sad that walter wated nothing to do with it. I talked to them and they were more concerned with how old those are and that i need a new tranny than helping me source the isolation bushings.
phorvati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-06-2018, 20:15   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rhode Island
Boat: Tayana FD-12
Posts: 704
Images: 6
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

Rust on the head from flodding it with pink antifreeze. Luckilly she cleans up pretty good. Click image for larger version

Name:	20180625_181818.jpeg
Views:	43
Size:	77.1 KB
ID:	172523Click image for larger version

Name:	20180626_221139.jpeg
Views:	46
Size:	68.1 KB
ID:	172524
phorvati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2018, 12:40   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rhode Island
Boat: Tayana FD-12
Posts: 704
Images: 6
Re: Help with seized Ford Lehman SP90

Just an update...she started for me last night. I put new injectors. I still have to rewire the instruments so i didnt bring her to temp yet. But i did have a little ordeal...
I replaced the shutoff solenoid, and not realizing how much play is needed, Basicly solenoid would not shut her off. And because the shutoff piston was bottoming at the solenoid cylinder end i could not manually shut her off either.
Cracked two out of 4 injector nuts, she was still running...rather smooth as well. The other two injector nuts were not very accesible. So i Jambed a large towel into intake and she took quite a long time to slow down and finally die. It was midnight and i didnt go up to look for smoke etc. But judging how smoothly she ran, i am very excited. Pretty sure all 4 cyllinders have good compression. I had injector nuts cracked and tightened while i was starting her.
Afterwords, dipstick showed slighlty greyish oil...unmistakable sign of water.. which makes sense.
I adjusted the solenoid play and i belive now it will shut off. More antifreeze and new oil, and ill be ready to bring her to temp and do an oil change.
__________________

phorvati is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lehman

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FORD Lehman, short please help. thumper803 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 5 06-10-2014 17:02
Thrown Rod Ford Lehman 70hp Help! Cliche Engines and Propulsion Systems 9 08-09-2013 05:03
Looking for a Ford-Lehman Exhaust Elbow Chief Engineer Engines and Propulsion Systems 6 29-01-2012 16:16
Ford Lehman Mechanic Saildude Engines and Propulsion Systems 4 29-09-2006 19:49
ISO Sources for Ford Lehman Overhaul Kit Geoff S. Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 01-08-2005 03:19



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.