Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-03-2008, 12:44   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Humacao, Puerto Rico
Boat: Beneteau 456
Posts: 429
Images: 8
Hard to start Perkins....

My Perkins 4108M has developed a hard to start symptom. It starts very smoky (white-gray) and rough until the temperature rises and then it works fine. I have already checked the injectors, cleaned exhaust elbow, filters etc. Could it be an air leak in the fuel system?...
__________________

__________________
avazquez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2008, 13:39   #2
Now on the Dark Side: Stink Potter.
 
CSY Man's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Boat: 2001 Albin 28TE.
Posts: 3,399
Images: 115
White smoke is water/coolant is memory serves right...?
__________________

__________________
Life is sexually transmitted
www.odincharters.com
www.susanhanssen.com
CSY Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2008, 19:12   #3
Eternal Member
 
Chief Engineer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: North of Baltimore
Boat: Ericson 27 & 18' Herrmann Catboat
Posts: 3,798
Check that the shutdown cable is working properly.

Simple things first y'know
__________________
Chief Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-03-2008, 22:22   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
White'ish/gray smoke is uncombusted fuel. I wuill assume when you say you have checked injectors, that you have removed them and sent them away for cleaning and reconing if needed.So that leaves you with one not so good situation. Most likely you have poor compression on one or more cyclinders. This type of fault usually creates the greatest amount of smoke. Causes of poor compression can be worn rings, worn bore, badly seating or stuck valves, or headgasket failure. The next step is to remove the head and see what you find.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2008, 20:43   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Humacao, Puerto Rico
Boat: Beneteau 456
Posts: 429
Images: 8
Update.....

I found that the fuel supply line at the lift pump was a bit lose and could have been leaking air into the fuel system. As a matter of fact when I removed it from the lift pump input , it was dry. Fixed it and reinstalled it.

I then proceeded to advance the timing on the injector pump by rotating it a little bit in the opposite direction of the arrow in the pump.

The result:

Improvement. The engine starts a bit rough but as soon as the temperature begins to rise the smoke clears and the egine runs smooth. Basicly it is back to the same condition it was before. Tomorrow I will advance the timing a little bit more and see if the startup smoke clears away. I'll post the result.
__________________
avazquez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-03-2008, 22:42   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
If you are getting into suspecting timing it may pay to also check that the timing relationship between the crankshaft, camshaft, fuel injection pump is correct. Am not familiar with the innards of your engine but usual check involves pinning the flywheel and cam shaft in timing holes (use Phillips head screwdrivers or drills if do not have timing pins) and checking injection pump drive pulley/sprocket/gear is in the correct timing position. I am sure that Alan (and maybe others) knows more about that stuff than me and may add more or, heaven forbid , correct me.

This timing on our own engine was incorrect from new but with no obvious problems. When I discovered this and corrected it the engine ran much quieter and happier, particulalrly at idle or low revs. While we didn't have a smoke issue I mention it because even a new engine may be incorrectly so timed.
__________________
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2008, 01:24   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
Why would the timing be out and why did you try altering it when fixing a leak? You should do one thing at a time. I doubt you will need to alter timing, unless the pump has been off. The problem may have been the fuel line.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2008, 01:40   #8
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
What is the general condition of your engine?

You course of action could also be guided by the general condition of your engine and your future plans.

The Perkins 4108M looks to be about 25 years old, which is starting to get a little long in the tooth. It appears to be a common engine so spares should be available.

If your engine is in top notch order, has always been well maintained and has low hours then repair may be a viable option.

If it is in poor condition, has high hours and has a patchy maintenance record then replacement may be an indicated.

Before spending any money at all I would suggest pricing out a complete overhaul. Check that parts are available and reasonably priced. Especially check that all gaskets can be readily sourced as can major items like oil and injector pumps.

Don't forget to factor in the condition of the gearbox. Cruising yachts can run their engines at 80% power for lengthy periods, and the gearbox may not be rated for this.

Treat any advice about repairing the engine with scepticism. I found myself some $3,500 out of pocket with a month wasted before it became clear that several mechanics and a surveyor has provided inadequate advice and the engine had to be replaced.

While 50hp in a Beneteau 456 is fine for local cruising or racing, long distance cruising may indicate a larger engine and higher rated gearbox.

It may be possible to spend more on repairing an old engine than the cost of a new one.
__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2008, 05:10   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Humacao, Puerto Rico
Boat: Beneteau 456
Posts: 429
Images: 8
The whole story..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler View Post
Why would the timing be out and why did you try altering it when fixing a leak? You should do one thing at a time. I doubt you will need to alter timing, unless the pump has been off. The problem may have been the fuel line.
This engine was completely overhauled less than three years ago by the previous owner. I have the receipts. New liners, cylinders, valves, springs, gaskets etc. etc. Even the transmission was replaced with an overhauled unit. I believe all the parts and the transmission replacement came from Foley Engines in the US East Coast.

When I purchased the boat the engine was smoking white/gray 90 percent of the time. The previous owner advised me of the situation but told me that the engine was recently put together and that adjustments were necessary. The first thing I noticed was that the temperature wouldn't go above 140F so I ordered a new thermostat and the temperature went up to 180F. The smoking subsided and only happened upon startup, but as soon as the engine warmed up the smoke would go away. I replaced all of the fuel lines, cleaned the tank, installed a new Racor, had the injectors serviced locally, valve adjustment etc. Recently I noticed that the engine developed a hard to start symptom which degraded into a rough idle and rough runinng.

I found that the line that feeds the lift pump was a bit loose but I had already retarded the injector pump timing when troubleshooting. The reason: because I thought I was advancing it. So with timing retarded and a fuel leak the engine was barely runing ( of course I know this now). I fixed the line, advanced the timing a bit past its original setting, adjusted the valves and now the engine runs better than before all of this happened. Still the white/gray smoke is there upon startup but it clears away and the engine runs smooth.

My next step is to advance ther timing a bit more and see if the startup smoke goes away. So like you said Alan "one thing at a time" from now on.
__________________
avazquez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-03-2008, 12:51   #10
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
Good Lad.
It would be a good idea to search a manual for the correct timing procedure and set as per manual. Timing on a Diesel is not like that of a Petrol. The Diesel requires a more exacting timing and safe operation and longevity of the diesel is crittical to timing. Don't simply turn the pump till it sounds sweet. It doesn't quite work like that. And bad timing could certainly be a cause of smoke. However, that is a little hard to say when we here can not see the smoke and confirn amount and colour. We can only go by explanation and so do realise, some of that info would have helped greatly earlier in the discussion.
__________________

__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hard to believe we got away with this one. JamesFrance The Sailor's Confessional 2 08-11-2007 13:59
Perkins 4-108 hard to start Seman Engines and Propulsion Systems 15 07-11-2007 11:22
Cold Start Heater on Perkins 4-108 jimisbell Engines and Propulsion Systems 20 01-03-2007 17:17
on the hard sam i am Liveaboard's Forum 1 18-01-2007 13:46
It's a Start. ssullivan The Library 16 12-12-2005 20:54



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.