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View Poll Results: How often have you experienced significant bad fuel problems?
More than twice and to the extent the engine won't run and/or needed multiple filter changes. 13 17.33%
Once or twice and just required a single filter change. 21 28.00%
Never 41 54.67%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17-01-2015, 15:12   #46
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Am I the only one who thinks SWL really is incorrigible
I dunno, Geoff, I have never tried to corrige SWL! Might be fun...

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Old 17-01-2015, 15:23   #47
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

Maybe the question should be 'who has taken aboard duff fuel and where?'

Puerto Eden has a reputation for bad fuel out of second hand 44 gal drums etc etc etc but I have bunkered there 6 times over ten years and never had a dud drop even when it did come out of old drums... now comes out of fancy plastic tanks ( about 500 litres?).

In Piriapolis I was advised to get a small road tanker in rather than take fuel at the marina fuel dock.
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Old 17-01-2015, 19:41   #48
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

I get water in my fuel. It's an easy fix, just drain it from the Racor as necessary. The reasons straight forward. I have a 500 liter deisel tank on a sailboat. I have a hundred meter trip out the breakwater and I'm in open water, so I don't use much fuel.

I'm surprised I don't have more problems really, with a 35 year old Taiwanese built black iron tank.

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Old 18-01-2015, 03:30   #49
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I get water in my fuel. It's an easy fix, just drain it from the Racor as necessary. The reasons straight forward. I have a 500 liter deisel tank on a sailboat. I have a hundred meter trip out the breakwater and I'm in open water, so I don't use much fuel.

I'm surprised I don't have more problems really, with a 35 year old Taiwanese built black iron tank.

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This question is not only directed at you FV but also to all others who just remove the water via the Racor (presumably the fuel line Racor, not a discrete fuel polishing Racor).

Doesn't this practice concern you?

My concerns would be:
1. How did the water get into the Racor - presumably only via the fuel line and thus fuel pickup in the tank.

2. The fuel pickup is fixed and presumably is somewhat above the bottom of the tank, at least above the bottom of the sump (if any).

3. Thus the unusable fuel in the tank (the fuel below the pickup) must be mostly water if it is getting into the fuel line / Racor.

4. The quantity of water in the tank could be anywhere from a litre to many litres; dependant on tank size and tank geometry / pickup location.

5. This water will never be removed by the fuel line Racor.

This would worry me but have I missed some fundamental point
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Old 18-01-2015, 03:38   #50
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I dunno, Geoff, I have never tried to corrige SWL! Might be fun...

Jim
This had me reaching for Google, wikipedia and others

It seems I have been trying to corrige SWL; just never realised it until today!

It hasn't been fun for me but YMMV.

My apologies to SWL, I will refrain...

Regardless, I will continue to believe SWL is incorrigible
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Old 18-01-2015, 03:59   #51
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Regardless, I will continue to believe SWL is incorrigible
I burst put laughing reading the example they gave under the definition.
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Old 18-01-2015, 04:15   #52
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll



Oh allright, I wouldn't refrain

Now where is that "I'm speechless" smilie...
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Old 18-01-2015, 04:25   #53
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
The devil drove me to it .

To get things back on track, I notice the poll is now showing an insignificant 15% of respondents have had significant problems with the insignificant issue of engine trouble due to significantly bad diesel .

SWL
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Old 18-01-2015, 05:40   #54
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

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Originally Posted by sanibel sailor View Post
I have heard for years about keeping fuel tanks full to avoid condensation
in the air in the tank. It seems to make sense and is widely quoted as
fact, but no one says the extent of the problem. Damp air gets sucked into the tank, then the water condenses as it cools. I have always wondered if this was a significant source of contamination. I was thinking that a valve on the vent may be reasonable, so I did some physics homework tonight. Turns out the amount of water coming in is likely pretty minute.

Assume:
A generous temperature change from 23 degrees F to 59 degrees F (-5 to 15 Celsius) results in a volume of air exchange of 7.5% (BTW 0F to 75F makes it 16%)

Assume:
100 gallon air space in tank
100% relative humidity of the warm air with this temp change gives 3.3
grams of condensed water or about half a teaspoon from the entire air volume, but only about a quarter of a gram for every thermal cycle or about 1 1/2 teaspoons per month.

If the relative humidity is 70%, the amount goes down to about 60% of this.

My conclusion-for moderate daily temp fluctuations in relatively moderate
humidity in the winter months, given my 32 gallon diesel tank has say ten
gallons of fuel in it, there is probably about a teaspoonful of water all
winter. This amounts to about a drop of water per day. Leaky deck fill O-rings are much more likely culprits.
Both of you did interesting experiments. The only problem was both are unrealistic.

Why, because your calculations imply an adiabatic environment for the entire, but in fact, water vapor that condenses on the side of a colder tank wall, will then form droplets that sooner of later get big enough to flow into the fuel. then what? being heavier than fuel, it sinks, thus your fuel is constantly removing water condensate.

Now, I agree that most major water intrusions are coming from the vent and or the fill port, but to say that a tank that is onloy partially full does not collect water is just plain wrong. It will.

So the old adage to keep tanks full in winter is still correct.
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Old 18-01-2015, 05:49   #55
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
This question is not only directed at you FV but also to all others who just remove the water via the Racor (presumably the fuel line Racor, not a discrete fuel polishing Racor).

Doesn't this practice concern you?

My concerns would be:
1. How did the water get into the Racor - presumably only via the fuel line and thus fuel pickup in the tank.

2. The fuel pickup is fixed and presumably is somewhat above the bottom of the tank, at least above the bottom of the sump (if any).

3. Thus the unusable fuel in the tank (the fuel below the pickup) must be mostly water if it is getting into the fuel line / Racor.

4. The quantity of water in the tank could be anywhere from a litre to many litres; dependant on tank size and tank geometry / pickup location.

5. This water will never be removed by the fuel line Racor.

This would worry me but have I missed some fundamental point
It absolutely concerns me. The boat was clearly designed to motor 1000+ miles a year. Which, given the fact that I have a full time job, a young family and live in immediate proximity to open water- is pretty unrealistic.

1) I do periodically use a sealed pump to drain water from the bottom of my tank. But it's a bit unreliable.

2) I'm in the process of a refit. The boats a 79. She had a total refit in 93, so she's due. I haven't yet decided whether to zig or zag on the engine. Power with a Kubota, or rebuild the Perkins. When I make the call on my engine I'm going to do something with my fuel system too. Probably replace the big old fuel tank with a much smaller new tank.

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Old 18-01-2015, 09:00   #56
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

I've had all manner of fuel problems.

The big boat has some kind of nasty sludge that somehow got through the Racor, and the secondary, and fouled the injector pump. No inspection ports. I've pumped the tank out and filtered the fuel back in to no avail. Solution was a day tank. Main fuel gets filtered into day tank, then filtered into engine. Some day I'll put in a port (3/16" steel tank top, under engine) and figure out how to clean out the sump. In the meantime the day tank solution is working well.

The 33 came with a small piece of cloth in the tank that got sucked into the pick up. That took some work to figure out. Then last year my fuel fill decided to weld itself into one solid piece. It was some kind of plastic. A hammer and big screwdriver eventually disintegrated it, but not without dumping some debris into the tank. The engine would run fine, then loose power as the debris clogged the inlet. I McGyvered a bit of SS wire down the line to keep the stuff from clogging the pickup. That worked for 1,500 miles. Since then I've moved the tank and added a day tank. Double filtration again. I have bought bad diesel in out ports.

I think there is a good argument to keep at least one jerry can with diesel, and have a way to run out of that, pick up and return, if just to dock.

If you just sail around the bouys then whatever works. But if you are off the beaten track, then redundancy and planning for bad fuel is good practice.
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Old 19-01-2015, 03:34   #57
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
It absolutely concerns me. The boat was clearly designed to motor 1000+ miles a year. Which, given the fact that I have a full time job, a young family and live in immediate proximity to open water- is pretty unrealistic.

1) I do periodically use a sealed pump to drain water from the bottom of my tank. But it's a bit unreliable.

2) I'm in the process of a refit. The boats a 79. She had a total refit in 93, so she's due. I haven't yet decided whether to zig or zag on the engine. Power with a Kubota, or rebuild the Perkins. When I make the call on my engine I'm going to do something with my fuel system too. Probably replace the big old fuel tank with a much smaller new tank.

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Yes, that makes good sense in your circumstance. Thanks for the clarification, I misunderstood your earlier post, thinking you only used your Racor to remove the water.
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Old 19-01-2015, 09:36   #58
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

I have had serious gunk-in-fuel problems on a number of occasions which were serious enough to induce me to install a 12V gear pump fuel polishing system.

Before I installed the fuel polisher I used my Finsbury engine oil removal pump with a length of 1/2 inch copper pipe screwed on the bottom to sample from the very bottom of the fuel tank.

The Finsbury has a male thread on the suction which a 1/2 inch female half union will screw onto. I would pump a liter or so of fuel from the very bottom of the tank into an old orange juice container and could then see whether there was water in the very bottom of the tank.

The Finsbury is now permanently installed in parallel with the 12V gear pump with a check valved bypass and is used to prime the gear pump. In addition to filtering fuel the system is used to extract the engine oil from the motor when I do an oil change. The A$350 or so I spent installing this system has proven to be one of the best boating investments I have made.
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Old 26-01-2015, 12:12   #59
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

With today's fuels you have to be using additives. I write papers on this

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Old 28-01-2015, 01:06   #60
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Re: Good Diesel & Bad Diesel Poll

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With today's fuels you have to be using additives. I write papers on this

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If you have posted info about fuel additives elsewhere on CF, can you please put a link or two here?

If you haven't posted such info on CF, may I ask you to put some info here or maybe post a link to other places on the internet where we can access your expertise?

Thanks!
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