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Old 23-01-2017, 09:30   #1
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Gas in Diesel - help!!

Our Alberg 30's 3GM30F Yanmar was fuelled in error with 1/2 a tank of gasoline added to the existing 1/2 tank of diesel. It ran for approximately 8 hours on this mix, labouring for much of that time (obviously!), before stopping completely. Thankfully, we had retreated from the Gulf Stream back toward the coast by that time.

We are receiving conflicting information on whether we can repair the damage (i.e. replace fuel injectors, etc.) or need a new engine. We are off-shore cruising, and need to be able to rely on our engine, so are concerned if we go the repair route, we may continue to be plagued with issues. At the same time, we like our oldie, previously reliable, simple engine that we are able to work on ourselves and are concerned if we go with a new engine, it will be beyond our layperson ability to service (although a new engine shouldn't need anything more than regular maintenance).

As always, we would appreciate any advice / experience others have to help inform our decision. By the way, the marina that made this error (after we questioned the fuel twice) will be footing the bill, so for a change, cost isn't an issue on this one.
Thanks, in advance, for your help.
Shirley & Tim
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Old 23-01-2017, 09:42   #2
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

I'd opt for the new motor rather than the repair, then you have a reliable motor. Either way it going to take some time out of your cruising, but putting in a new motor may be less time then messing around repairing the old one.

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Old 23-01-2017, 10:01   #3
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

8 hours is quite a bit of time. You may have scored parts etc. On the other hand, gas is lighter than diesel right? So I wonder if the pickup in the tank was picking up mostly diesel off the bottom of the tank.? Or was it all sloshed around and mixed up...
I would get an estimate from a good mechanic in the area.
-rebuild injector pump (seals may be shot)
-New injectors
-disassemble and renew as required
-etc.
It's likely that cost will be above a new engine, so use that to convince the marina that a new engine is the best option. It's likely their insurance is going to have to cover it, so you are going to need to have your info together to convince an insurance inspector also.
BTW... don't you watch when you refuel? You should.
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Old 23-01-2017, 10:55   #4
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

I would start with pulling injectors and then use a bore scope to check cylinder walls for scoring. If no scoring of the cylinders are seen then rebuild pump and injectors. If the cylinders are scored then decide on rebuild or re-power. Good luck
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Old 23-01-2017, 10:58   #5
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

Without taking the whole motor apart, you'd never know it it was just the injectors/fuel system that was damaged running the 50/50 gas/diesel mixture.

Even 1% gas added to diesel will significantly change the flash point of the fuel and running for 8 hrs on a 50/50 mixture most likely damaged the lower end of the motor.

IMHO even if they were able to get it running again w/only changing the injectors/fuel system, you could have a catastrophic engine failure down the road after you signed off on the job. Then what?

I'm certain the marina will want to take the cheap way out, but by telling them you want the whole engine removed/inspected for any lower end damage to the crankshaft, etc. it may make a new motor "cheaper". That's the only way to know for certain if the whole motor hasn't been damaged.

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Old 23-01-2017, 11:06   #6
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

Thanks Bill O & Cheechako.
re: don't we watch when refuelling? Good question. We didn't give the whole story because we thought it would head the post down a tangent, but it's probably a worthwhile tangent to share our mistake and hopefully, others can also learn.

We are novice cruisers - not an excuse - but just a piece of the equation that we don't have a lot of experience yet. We were really excited about our upcoming Gulf Crossing, and eager to get going. We were at a fuel dock of a posh marina, serving multi-million dollar yachts, so had a measure of trust in them that we wouldn't have necessarily had at another facility.

When handed a blue-handled nozzle, we questioned it because all diesel pumps we have been served at have always been green. The dockhand showed us on the pump that it was diesel. When clear fuel came out rather than the usual pink coloured fuel, we stopped immediately, and expressed concern again that this wasn't diesel. The dockhand did go check with management, and returned to explain that they had serviced the pumps that day, the Dept of Ag had inspected and confirmed all was well, and that it was indeed diesel. We had recently been told by a fellow cruiser that he has used uncoloured diesel intended for another industry, and that the colorant is put in to distinguish diesel for marine use for taxation purposes, but that both are the same. Nevertheless, seemed strange that this marina would have non-marina fuel. We have no idea when the colouring is added, so surmised with the dockhand that since we were first to draw from this recently serviced pump, the colorant had probably not yet mixed through, and proceeded.

It ends up that the gas nozzle and diesel nozzle were taken out of their holsters in the services, and when returned once done, the gas nozzle was placed on the diesel side of the pump and vice versa. Simple mistake with serious consequences.

So, as you can see, lots of human error, including ours in not listening to our heads and guts. In hindsight, we should have refused, and headed off to get fuel somewhere else. Costly lesson learned, and we are grateful that the outcome wasn't more serious.
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Old 23-01-2017, 11:07   #7
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

Nobody on this forum can tell what damage may have been done to your engine although many will try. I 'm assuming the marina will be paying a qualified mechanic to diagnose the problem and either repair it or recommend a replacement engine. I doubt the choice will be up to you if they are paying.

I suppose you could hire your own mechanic (at your expense) to give you a second opinion. If the marina has the engine repaired, you can ask for a reasonable warranty, say 90 days or 180 days.
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Old 23-01-2017, 11:12   #8
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

Bill O is correct.

I've run into this with farm equipment. The problem is that the presence of gasoline often leads to detonation (knock), which can easily cause damage to the pistons and other bottom end components. There is no way to assess the extent of the damage without a full overhaul, and if it were me, I'd have the rods and maybe the crank magnafluxed, especially if there are any signs of unusual stress on the pistons.

As an aside, be careful when de-fueling, as the mixture of gas and diesel is as flammable as gasoline alone. Fires when de-fueling after a gas/diesel mixup are all too common.
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Old 23-01-2017, 11:35   #9
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

I have a bad feeling that since you were handed the nozzle and you put the fuel into the boat it's on you even though you asked repeatedly. This is all hear say, I assume you have nothing in writing.
I would try being nice if they accept responsibility, but in the meantime I would ask a real Honest to God Lawyer His or Her opinion, then armed with that knowledge you know how forceful to be or not to be.

This happens more often that you can imagine, I have even had an FBO try to put Jet-A into a 1340 powered radial airplane and 100 LL into a turbine.
The difference between those two is huge, like between a motor yacht and a sailboat and they still tried. only thing that stopped them on the 1340 is the nozzle wouldn't fit.

Last time I saw it done at a Marina was back when they pumped the fuel, the Moorings at Carrabelle Fl, they pumped out all fuel and replaced it at the dock.
Seems now that the boat owner always pumps the fuel, never seen Marina staff do it anymore, there must be a reason for that.
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Old 23-01-2017, 11:54   #10
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariose View Post
It ends up that the gas nozzle and diesel nozzle were taken out of their holsters in the services, and when returned once done, the gas nozzle was placed on the diesel side of the pump and vice versa. Simple mistake with serious consequences.
It *sounds* from your recounting as though the above was revealed during a conversation you had with the marina when you called to follow up post incident.

Assuming that you have called your insurance company? Any word yet on whether you will be covered? It might also be worth a conversation with a lawyer. A few who fueled up after you may have had a similar experience until the marina realized it's error.

I agree in general that you're ultimately responsible, but you were assured several times, with generally plausible explanations, that you had been handed the correct hose. I think the fact that you repeatedly questioned the dockhand and were still directed to use the incorrect hose that there should be some compensation from the marina.

What I find bizarre is that a dockhand didn't notice that the handle was the wrong color and figure out that the handles were simply in the wrong holsters. That's just plain weird.
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Old 23-01-2017, 11:55   #11
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
Bill O is correct.

I've run into this with farm equipment. The problem is that the presence of gasoline often leads to detonation (knock), which can easily cause damage to the pistons and other bottom end components. There is no way to assess the extent of the damage without a full overhaul, and if it were me, I'd have the rods and maybe the crank magnafluxed, especially if there are any signs of unusual stress on the pistons.

As an aside, be careful when de-fueling, as the mixture of gas and diesel is as flammable as gasoline alone. Fires when de-fueling after a gas/diesel mixup are all too common.
Apologies for being blunt, but the above is pure misinformation..

There is no such thing as knock in Diesel engines. Knock is premature (before spark is fired) combustion in spark ignition engines, where fuel-air mixture is already present in cylinders. Diesels compress air and then inject fuel at a precisely calculated moment (expressed in degrees before TDC). In fact an important property of Diesel fuel is its cetane number which indicates the combustion speed of a given batch of fuel. The higher the number the faster the fuel will 'explode' when injected and the better for compression ignition (Diesel) engines.

For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetane_number

It is unlikely to cause damage to the block with diesel-gas mixture, in fact European car manufacturers for a long time officially published advice to drivers to 'winterize' their summer blend of Diesel fuel with up to 30% of gasoline, should they be caught by freezing temperatures with a tank of summer Diesel blend..

What is likely is damage to injection pump and injectors, because of poor lubrication properties of gas-Diesel mixture. The OP may be in for a new/rebuild injection pump and/or injectors.
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Old 23-01-2017, 12:19   #12
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

Ariose,
May be a good idea to contact at Yanmar Marine to tell them of the situation and see what they advise/recommend doing.

Couldn't hurt to have this expert opinion in your back pocket if you need it.

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Old 23-01-2017, 12:28   #13
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
........... I would ask a real Honest to God Lawyer His or Her opinion,.................
It's not often that you see the words "God" and "Lawyer" in the same sentence. Or "Honest" and "Lawyer".

In reading the posts by the OP, it seems the marina has already taken responsibility for this mistake. There's nothing to be gained by stirring the pot.
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Old 23-01-2017, 12:31   #14
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

Any time we've posted to this forum, we're always amazed at the volume of helpful responses.
We're digesting all the information, appreciate the warnings, and yes, have consulted with a lawyer (love having one of those species in the family), and the email to Yanmar went out just before we posted here.
Now we will continue to be cooperative and reasonable, and are pleased that the marina seems to be doing the same, and will wait for the mechanic's diagnosis & recommendations.
many, many thanks!
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Old 23-01-2017, 12:45   #15
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Re: Gas in Diesel - help!!

For future reference, I'm curious what are the symptoms of the problem as you are running the engine? The engine ran 8 hrs before it shut itself down? Or did the symptoms of the problem get so bad that you shut it down.

BTW, its lucky for you you're dealing with a "high end" marina. Many gas docks around me wouldn't be as cooperative.
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