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11-12-2018, 16:29
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Key West
Boat: 1986 Sigma 41
Posts: 200
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Fischer Panda starter riddle
I have a 2013 Fischer Panda PMS4200Plus. When I engage the starter it rattles around and spins the flywheel haphazardly. Not enough to start the engine. I took it apart and the flywheel spins freely. The starter works great on a bench. I got the generator in this state. I believe a previous mechanic installed the wrong starter.
I got a new Fischer Panda starter, just in case, and it does the same thing. Rattle rattle.
Fischer Panda says they only stock one starter for this model.
I STILL think it is the wrong starter.
Here's why.
The hole the starter fits into on my junk Panda 4200 looks like this:
The hole the starter fits into on my current Panda 4200 looks like this:
The starter I have looks like this:
What I think is that I need the SAME starter but one with a nose cone on the front that will fit into my hole solidly. I think it is loose and just rattling around. The Fischer Panda folks can't really explain why my holes are different and just state that there is only one starter.
My question: does it seem like its the incorrect starter?
Any idea on how to find this new starter part number?
Or, better yet, anybody gone thru this?
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11-12-2018, 16:52
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Slidell, La.
Boat: Morgan Classic 33
Posts: 2,845
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
A guess might be that the bushing 14 shown below has been misplaced or is worn out.
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11-12-2018, 17:10
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Key West
Boat: 1986 Sigma 41
Posts: 200
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
Thanks for the reply. The bushing is pretty beat up. Replacing it, I believe, would be major surgery. I just want to rule out the starter being the wrong one before I start taking apart the engine to remove and replace that bushing. That is my other next step.
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11-12-2018, 17:15
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,961
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
You have the correct starter. Your problem is that you are missing the alignment bushing--a bronze bushing that should have been pressed into the case during the manufacturing process but seems to have been omitted. Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon failure/omission by Farymann. Firstly, contact Jamie in FP parts in Ft. Lauderdale and tell him what you need. The bushings are all of $.10 each. Tell him to send several of them to you via USPS in a padded pouch, not via UPS or FedEx which will cost you many multiple times the cost of the bushings. Next, call or email Jeff Till, at Panda in Ft. Lauderdale and let him know your situation. He'll likely have Jamie "comp" the parts you need--the bushings and the gasket. Next, before you even consider reinstalling the starter once your rec'd the bushings, take it to you local auto electric shop and have them replace the top end bushing and check the device for function. Even a complete rebuild should not cost more than about $85.00 USD (at least in Florida).
Once you're sure the starter is Okay, proceed with the re-install. Firstly, the bushing should be pressed into the case with a thin coating of JB Weld on the outer surface to "lock" in in place. If the case has been "ovaled" somewhat due to trying to start the machine without the bushing, you can use a thin steel pick to position it forward, i.e. toward the cylinder head, and press it flush with the surface of the case. Once the JB Weld kicks off, you can remount the starter and bolt it in place and you should be good to go.
Unfortunately, I Have BTDT at no minot expense. The situation is a flock-up by Farymann--not FP--but FP and it's customers have eaten dirt as a consequence. DON"T BE ONE OF THEM!
FWIW...
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
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11-12-2018, 17:25
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,961
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
Quote:
Originally Posted by theglo
Thanks for the reply. The bushing is pretty beat up. Replacing it, I believe, would be major surgery. I just want to rule out the starter being the wrong one before I start taking apart the engine to remove and replace that bushing. That is my other next step.
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If you have the bushing in place--which from the photos I can't tell but didn't think you did, it can be removed quite easily by using a threat cutter and a small "slap hammer".
You use the thread cutter to cut about 1/4" deep worth of threads in the bushing, extract the cutter and heat the bushing up with a small torch to soften the JB Weld, reinsert the thread cutter, attach the slap hammer to the thread cutter shaft, and give it a couple of wacks. The old bushing, if you have one, will pop out. All of the foregoing takes about 15 minutes and a little patience. BTDT...
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
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11-12-2018, 18:49
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Key West
Boat: 1986 Sigma 41
Posts: 200
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
THANKS for your help! Exactly what I needed.
I'll get after this this week and report back the results.
Thanks again.
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12-12-2018, 05:54
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,961
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
Further to this discussion, if you need it, the starter is a common VW diesel engine starter, normally found on their older four cylinder diesel engines. It should spin your single cylinder motor up like a top. If it needs replacement (unlikely but who knows) take your old starter to a local VW shop/dealer. Their charge for the part will be much less than FP's.
FWIW...
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
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12-12-2018, 07:30
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#8
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
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Fischer Panda starter riddle
The bushing like what you have, is exactly what the old VW aircooled motors had, it’s easy to remove, one way is to fill the hole with grease and take a smooth rod of the correct diameter and insert it, and hit it with a hammer, the hydraulic force will pop out the bushing.
On the old VW’s the bushing would wear allowing so much play that it would eat the bearing in the starter out.
This bushing is exactly like the pilot bearing bushing in the flywheel on manual transmission car if you have replaced those.
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12-12-2018, 07:50
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,961
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
The bushing like what you have, is exactly what the old VW aircooled motors had, it’s easy to remove, one way is to fill the hole with grease and take a smooth rod of the correct diameter and insert it, and hit it with a hammer, the hydraulic force will pop out the bushing.
On the old VW’s the bushing would wear allowing so much play that it would eat the bearing in the starter out.
This bushing is exactly like the pilot bearing bushing in the flywheel on manual transmission car if you have replaced those.
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DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT DOING THIS^^^!
Firstly, the starter mount is directly above the electric dynamo and if you did manage to force it through the case, getting it into the electrics is guaranteed to destroy the generator end of the unit.
Secondly, the case is machined with a small lip around the underside to prevent the bushing from possibly passing through the case and you do not want to damage that or the above could happen.
Using a Tap/Thread Cutter in the manner mentioned in my earlier note is the only safe way to deal with the matter. Trust me on this. I spent thousands of dollars dealing with (we thought) an errant bushing although it turned out the bushing was never installed at all. We also discovered, ex post facto, that missing/omitted bushings was not unique to our situation/motor although we went through two starters before learning that it was missing and that it was not an unusual omission on Farymann's part.
FWIW...
PS: Further to your repair, upon inspecting your photos more closely I noticed a lot of metal shavings around the starter mount and bushing bore. You need to vacuum those and all the other debris out of there very diligently as you do not want any of those shavings getting to the electrics. Whatever you do, do not "wash" any of them into the electrical end of the generator with WD-40, or any cleaners. That end needs be kept as clean and free of debris as humanly possible!
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
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12-12-2018, 08:50
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Boot Key Harbor
Boat: Allied Mistress CC 39
Posts: 95
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
the ring gear looks ragged .
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12-12-2018, 09:41
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 10,208
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
It may be a dumb question? Is that a pilot bearing I see in the pics. If so look at that.
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12-12-2018, 19:12
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Olympia, Washington
Boat: 1979 Mariner Ketch 32-Hull 202
Posts: 2,124
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
Echo.
Bushing, worn out.
Cheers,
SV Cloud Duster
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13-12-2018, 04:06
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Key West
Boat: 1986 Sigma 41
Posts: 200
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
Thanks for the replies. Yesterday I was able to tap into the bushing and then what was left of it came out relatively easily when I screwed a 1/2" bolt into it just a few threads and added heat.
I spoke with Fischer Panda and they were helpful and are sending over a few bushings and a new starter gasket. So, hopefully, next week I'll have this back together.
This has been another example of when everyone tells me I'm wrong (about the nose cone); I am actually wrong.
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13-12-2018, 04:26
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 124
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
One other caution about this job...
The three bolts that secure the starter to the engine are two different lengths.
The difference is subtle but important to get right.
If you put the long bolt in the short bolt spot, you will bind the flywheel.
Just pay attention and you will be fine...
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13-12-2018, 07:46
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#15
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
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Re: Fischer Panda starter riddle
Quote:
Originally Posted by theglo
Thanks for the replies. Yesterday I was able to tap into the bushing and then what was left of it came out relatively easily when I screwed a 1/2" bolt into it just a few threads and added heat.
I spoke with Fischer Panda and they were helpful and are sending over a few bushings and a new starter gasket. So, hopefully, next week I'll have this back together.
This has been another example of when everyone tells me I'm wrong (about the nose cone); I am actually wrong.
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Well I was wrong too is seems, thinking it was like an old VW.
However your reasoning was sound, it was a lack of support on the end of the starter shaft
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