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Old 04-12-2009, 09:16   #1
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Ethanol

I realize most of you have diesel engines but for thoes of you that have gas. are you affected by the ethanol that is added to gasoline? here in NW Florida we are still getting use to it and are changing over all the fuel stations to ethanol E10.
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:22   #2
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ethanol

Not to be used in fiberglass tanks!!!!!

http://www.boatus.com/Seaworthy/fueltest.asp
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:23   #3
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If you have an old boat with fiberglass fuel tanks I have heard they will dissolve and create all sorts of havoc. Beware..good question.
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:25   #4
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At work we had to get rid of a carburated outboard on one of our small boats and replace it with an equivalent fuel injected outboard because the alcohol in the fuel kept causing the carburetor jets to become fouled. Even the fuel stabilizer designed for gasoline with ethanol did not prevent the fouling. After paying to have the carburetor jets cleaned out three times, the outboard shop we use said there was no solution to the problem other than buying a fuel injected engine.

The alcohol in the gasoline has cost us about $8000 to replace a perfectly good (now obsolete) carburated four-stroke outboard that had very low hours. I wonder how much pollution was generated in creating and delivering our replacement outboard? I wonder if the pollution generated in producing this engine will ever be more than the pollution generated in using gasoline with up to 10% alcohol?

It really makes me question what we are doing using valuable farmland to create an additive to gasoline that causes problems, has a lower energy content and is relatively expensive to produce. It really does not provide for much less pollution in terms of carbon content or CO2 content or a reduction in other types of pollution either.

Ironically, it takes diesel powered machines to plant and harvest the corn. It then takes diesel trucks to get the product to where the corn is distilled in to alcohol. It then takes diesel trucks, diesel tugs pushing barges or diesel powered trains to get the alcohol to the refineries. I wonder if they come out ahead at all in the energy equation, as well as the total pollution equation?

The production of alcohol has also driven up the price of corn, one of our basic food staples....not to mention hurting the poor and everyone else with increased food prices. A lot of the other food we eat, eats corn as well.

Alcohol does not seem to be worth the multitude of negative side effects. I wonder if anyone has ever put together the real numbers?
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:25   #5
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Please search the archives and Google. There are MANY threads.

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Old 04-12-2009, 10:05   #6
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I have tried searching this forum but my computer freezes up every time.
I herd the "Powers that Be" are looking int E15 now. thats going to be a mess
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:46   #7
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Try the Google Custom Search, second box down, under Search. Although it's a great resouce, don't fear to ask questions, even when you know they've been previously discussed.

There’s 37 returns on the word “ethanol” from the custom Google search of the CF:

ethanol - Google Search
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:05   #8
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Thanks Gord that worked.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:13   #9
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Just One Fish:

Are you saying that you are finding marine fuel docks are now stocking E10 gasoline? In our home port (St. Pete) and in our stops along FL's east coast this summer, where E10 gas is almost exclusively sold at regular gas stations, the fuel docks have only been dispensing 'real' gasoline. Please confirm you are talking about marine fueling stations.

Totally agree with David...and there seems little chance for reason to return. I've found a 10% reduction in mileage on our Civic when using E10 gas. The local dealer who sells and services Honda generators, mowers and such has signs pasted all over his store to the effect 'If you want to avoid excessive service & repairs, don't use 87 octane gas now that it's E10. Go to a higher octane' And good buddy Wes, who's finishing up the construction of an LSA aircraft, which came with fiberglass fuel tanks, has been telling me horror stories about the guys at his local airport who've chosen to use E10 fuel vs. buying 100LL aviation fuel (at 2-3 times more cost).

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Old 04-12-2009, 11:19   #10
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At the fuel dock I frequent, the gasoline is sold with alcohol. In fact there is a big sign right next to the pump that says to not use this fuel in aircraft. It then describes some of the nasty things alcohol can do to aircraft engines....which includes killing the aircraft's occupants.

Who knows why the sign is there...perhaps the possibility of a seaplane pulling up?
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:56   #11
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I dont know I have a trailer boat and dont fill up at any of the local marinas but I may want to look into them since the E10 seems to be causing everyone so much trouble.
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Old 04-12-2009, 15:18   #12
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Here in Australia it is not recommended to use ethanol in boats. Apparantly the ethanol separates from the gasoline over time.

I make my own ethanol but I prefer to drink it (DIY Vodka)
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Old 04-12-2009, 16:01   #13
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I believe that Ethanol is required in all gasoline sold in Massachusetts --including marinas. I assume this is true of some other states. Even where it's not required, I expect it's finding it's way into marina tanks as the path of least resistance among the distributors. How is the marina owner going to know (and does he really care)?

The fiberglass tank (and melting hose) problems only impact pretty old boats. I wouldn't worry too much unless your engine is quite old.

Everyone else has to deal with two challenges:

Tank cleaning: The first use of ethanol gasoline will clean the years of gunk out of your tank in one go. Expect clogged filters.

Phase separation (and short shelf life): I never keep ethanol gasoline for more than a month. You're asking for trouble. Adding one of the additives may help (but it may be psychological) and putting a stand alone water separating filter between the tank and the engine is now standard practice around here (even on dinghy's).

Carl
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Old 04-12-2009, 16:43   #14
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All just to pay off the farm states...it takes more energy to produce and deliver ethanhol by the time it is used with the drop in gas mileage there is a net energy loss.

totally stupid and political.
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:38   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
Phase separation (and short shelf life): I never keep ethanol gasoline for more than a month. You're asking for trouble. Adding one of the additives may help (but it may be psychological) and putting a stand alone water separating filter between the tank and the engine is now standard practice around here (even on dinghy's).

Carl
A good reference on phase separation is the EPA's own memo:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
I have checked their numbers in the lab; dead on. The temperature sensitivity explains why the problem is worst farther north. It is also a piece of why e-10 is forbidden in av gas.

As for additives, none help with phase separation (Practical Sailor did a bunch of tests). Actually, one did help, but it amounted to adding ~ 5% soap to the fuel, which seems like a really bad idea, or at least the greater of 2 evils. Oxidation (gum) is a different matter. There are those that help.

Fill you tank AFTER sailing = less breathing.
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