Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-07-2008, 22:14   #16
Registered User
 
Inthewind's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Charlotte harbor, FL
Boat: Morgan OI 414
Posts: 251
I think you have a failing injector pump. If it runs normal periodically for lengths of time and then fails, I would assume you have no other issues. Injector pumps can act up and then suddenly work normally. With a failed head gasket, I would think that it would not run normal at all. I am going with a worn out injector pump, but I cannot be for certain without being there and working on your engine and doing a few test. Check and make sure you have no water in your fuel system. My advice is only for entertainment purposes only. Good Luck.
__________________

__________________
Inthewind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2008, 22:53   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
Starbuck's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 827
I Concur

If you separate the water in the gearbox as a separate issue (the water pump seal, a situation that is now fixed), then the sick injector pump theory makes a hell of a lot of sense, because it explains all the remaining symptoms: the loss of power, the unburned fuel being pushed out the exhaust into the air and water behind the boat, and the intermittent nature of the problem.

I'd yank that injector pump off, and remove the nozzle while I was at it, and get them checked out. A 30-yr old diaphram, or whatever other moving part is inside that thing, would be very suspect.
__________________

__________________
s/y Elizabeth Catalina 34 MkII
"Man must have just enough faith in himself to have adventures, and just enough doubt of himself to enjoy them." G. K. Chesterfield
Starbuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2008, 23:12   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5
Many ideas, but the question is:
can any of these things be intermitent (head gasket, water, exhaust blockage,...)
or which is most likely to be intermitent
thank you
P.S new engine in europe is aprox 10.000 USD, so I would like to find out what is the problem so I am sure I am not throwing away good engine
__________________
flicka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2008, 23:18   #19
Eternal Member
 
Chief Engineer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: North of Baltimore
Boat: Ericson 27 & 18' Herrmann Catboat
Posts: 3,798
On your fuel circuit, do you have a lift pump...to injection pump...to injectors....the return line....does it go back to the tank or does it circulate back to a fuel filter....If it goes back to the filter, you may want to look at the lift pump...you may be getting air into the system via a leak in the diaphagm or on the suction side of the pump. A tiny leak will accumulate air (kinda like champgne bubbles) as it accumulates you will get a loss of rpm/power. Shutdown...air settles out and engine restarts.

Not a definitive answer but a possbility
__________________
Chief Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2008, 23:32   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5
I have a fuel tank above the level of the motor so there is no lift pump, the return line from the injector goes into fuel tank
when I start the engine for the first time (e.g. in the morning) I have to wait 10 min at low rpm, if I try to put it to cruising speed immediately it dies
__________________
flicka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2008, 23:57   #21
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Once again I am sticking to fuel delivery system.

And yes IMO the fuel delivery system can be intermittent whereas IMO a head gasket or cracked head cannot. Especially if the engine runs normally and then cuts out.

If you told us I missed it - What engine is this?

I don't know how complicated a pump we are talking about here but it definitely has to make high pressure fuel and deliver that high pressure fuel in the right quantity at the right time. For the fuel to be regulated there has to be a regulator, assuming there is a high pressure relief valve in the system somewhere it is very likely to be sticking.

When troubleshooting it is important to keep the symptoms separated and assume separate faults before you combine them.

1/ You had a water leak into the transmission
2/ You have a cut out problem after 2 hours of motoring
3/ You have a slow to warm up problem when cold

The 3rd symptom is new and could be indicative af a very worn out engine. A differentiall pressure compression check would be on my list of things to do.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 00:11   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5
its a SOLE DIESEL MINI 3 12 HP year 1977 (single cylinder)
1/water leak into transmission is solved
3/the slow warmup problem came up exactlly at the same time as cut out problem and white smoke
__________________
flicka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 00:51   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
mikereed100's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Santa Barbara
Boat: 46' custom cat
Posts: 1,573
Images: 2
This may be far-fetched but I had a very similar problem with my Atomic 4. After motoring at cruising speed for about 2 hours it would quite suddenly lose rpms and stall. I would get white smoke (but no sheen) just before it stalled. It would start immediately but it would be 15min or so before I could put it in gear and carry on. There was no water in the oil, it never overheated, it always had plenty of fuel, spark and compression.

I scratched my head for over a year. My mechanic buddies scratched their heads as well. In desperation I finally broke down and hired a mechanic to look at it at great cost to my pride. He showed up at the boat full of confidence and cheer and left 6 hours later a broken man. The problem continued. One day i was cleaning the prop when I noticed that it didn't turn freely in neutral. When I got back on board I opened up the gearbox and loosened the reverse gear clutch and the damn thing has run great ever since.

Like I say, a long shot and I'm not betting but you might give your shaft a twist before getting too serious.

Mike
__________________
mikereed100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 07:04   #24
Registered User
 
ausieman's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sydney Australia
Boat: Citation 34' Center Cockpit (Australian design and build)
Posts: 61
Images: 12
A quick but not 100% foolproof way of checking for blown head gasket or a cracked head is to take the radiator/header tank cap off the with the engine running (CAUTION ... just after starting when the coolant is still not too hot) and looking for bubbles. If bubbles continually appear in the coolant you have a very good chance of a blown head gasket or worse a cracked head. Again ensure that the coolant is still cold or only lukewarm when conducting this test also make sure coolant is topped up to full level. Mikes solution sounds very feasable for the intermittent problem you describe.
__________________
I used to be undecided but now I'm not so sure.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder!
ausieman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 09:49   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
sandy daugherty's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: near Annapolis
Boat: PDQ 36 & Atlantic 42
Posts: 1,178
VooDoo fix #3: Have a nice long heart-to-heart with your engine. Explain the beauty of a nice long retirement at a seaside location with occasional responsibilities as a boat anchor. Continued communication in the form of smoke signals should be interpreted as enthusiasm for the suggestion.
__________________
sandy daugherty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 09:50   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 298
Another symptom of a blown head gasket is grey sludge in the oil.
__________________
TexSail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 11:28   #27
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,056
AFAIK unburned fuel makes BLUE smoke, and WHITE smoke is always steam, from water problems, quite often a bad head gasket. But there are diagnostics in pretty much every shop manual to follow, to start isolating the problem.

I would argue that mechanics have NOT done their job, and that "alleged mechanics" have simply failed to do the job. When a real mechanic DOES THE JOB, the problem is solved. Not just gone away for two hours. Unfortunately there are a lot of alleged mechanics out there, who should not be allowed to work on roller skates let alone engines.

FWIW, is the head gasket is blown--not badly blown, but passing water because of a warped head--then letting the engine cool down for a couple of hours will indeed "fix" the problem. As the engine heats up, the gasket opens up, the problem comes back. Shut it down, cool it down, the metal contracts and the passage for the leak closes up. And the problem goes away, until the engine is hot and/or under load again. Heat and load related problems like that are common--even if it isn't the head gasket.

Oil sheen? Unburned fuel. Might or might not be related to the white smoke, which is still most likely water. Go to any library, pick up any shop manual on any engine, and the section on diagnosing a blown head gasket pretty much applies to all of them the same way.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 12:35   #28
Registered User
 
marlborosounds's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Boat: Chung hwa Magellan 36' S/V Q-wave
Posts: 31
Does the engine have a sleeve? If so I have had this happen in the past with a bad wore out o-ring leaking water. Oil will make it sweel up and seal till the heat makes it dry out. Then it will repeat untill untill the rubber or leather ring has completely gone.
Just a thought.
__________________
marlborosounds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 20:15   #29
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
I would argue that mechanics have NOT done their job, and that "alleged mechanics" have simply failed to do the job. When a real mechanic DOES THE JOB, the problem is solved.
I agree 100% - This isn't voodoo it's mechanics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
FWIW, is the head gasket is blown--not badly blown, but passing water because of a warped head--then letting the engine cool down for a couple of hours will indeed "fix" the problem.
Not sure if I agree with this as I have never seen it. I have seen several blown head gaskets and the symptoms are easy to detect. Bubbling cooling system, oil in the cooling system. etc. Depends if the gasket is blown between oil-cylinder, oil-water, water-cylinder.

In oil and water cases, you will also see consumption.

However hs - reread the symptom in post #1. After 2 hours it quits. He can restart immediately.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 20:18   #30
Eternal Member
 
Chief Engineer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: North of Baltimore
Boat: Ericson 27 & 18' Herrmann Catboat
Posts: 3,798
Engine Smoke for Dummies

White Smoke=Water
Blue Smoke=Oil
Black Smoke=Fuel

Survey sez!!!!!!! HEADGASKET .....oily sheen is probably due to a small amount of oil that is normally in the oil galleys to the valves mixing at the blown headgasket with the water
__________________

__________________
Chief Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine Dies... drh1965 Engines and Propulsion Systems 19 01-04-2008 12:27
Up in Smoke TaoJones Health, Safety & Related Gear 0 02-11-2007 15:29
white smoke or steam limmer Engines and Propulsion Systems 18 02-10-2007 22:56
White smoke and oily sheen on water from new rebuilt Yanmar 3JH2E Woody on "Hannah" Engines and Propulsion Systems 25 16-04-2007 20:07
WHITISH SMOKE keller Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 15 10-02-2006 18:36



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.