Engine And Machine Parts World Wide

[h the boat]

Hi every one, I have noticed several recent posts, where the user, is having difficulty in obtaining, what are in essence commonly available engine or machine parts, on a World Wide basis. In many cases this is due to the individual either not quite knowing what he or she requires, or more often, not knowing where to look.
This problem is not unique to the Marine Trades, and is mainly the fault of the Multi National organisations, particularly within the U.S.A. and Europe, who set up and operate what are restrictive practises. We have all experienced the wording on a warranty, " if replacement parts not made by the Makers of that product, are used, all Warranty is avoided", without exception.. What a nonsense. If an item is to be replaced under warranty, the Makers Agent is responsible for both the supply and fitting of that part. If he chooses to use a part that does not carry the name on the box, HE is the one legally liable for breaking the terms of the warranty, not the owner of the item .Even though the item is identical to the original and probably came from the same production line
The truth of the matter, is that THE MAJORITY OF REPLACEMENT PARTS including those parts included in original production, are produced by third party organisations, not the named Maker.. He sees an opportunity for vast profit, by putting his name on the box and restricting supply. Claiming that the name guarantees the quality of the part, ????? Again what utter nonsense.
Since the early 1950's and even before, when small piston engines "2 HP up to 5000 HP", began to be rationalised in production, there have been specialised providers of every type of engine part from carburettor units to Valves, Pistons, Rings, Cylinders, Springs, Pumps, Gaskets, seals, bearings, Etc, etc. Very many of them to agreed standard sizes and used in a multitude of DIFFERENT Engine Makers units and configurations. Yet each and every one of those Makers, will claim that their product is best, and only parts with their name on the box are suitable.
Volvo, will not tell you that the majority of their Marine engines since the 1970's are in fact slightly modified vehicle engines made by Ford, Peugeot, Nissan, Renault or some other Far Eastern Maker. or that replacement parts are available everywhere.( if only you know who else used that engine in what configuration).
Perkins Engines, The foremost producers of "small Engines" and now controllers of most engine production World Wide under a multitude of names including Russian, will only now, under extreme pressure, tell you that a piston or water pump from a U.S.A. Caterpillar 428 tractor, is in fact a Perkins 4236 type engine and that that engine is available as a marine unit under at least five different names. They won't want to tell you, that you can buy a set of piston rings, main bearings or water pump from most large vehicle parts suppliers, for virtually every small engine afloat, and at a very substantially reduced price, compared to the Dealer, who claims he is the exclusive Marine agent for that engine Name, even if he recognises, or has the required item in stock.. A good and mature agent, may not have the item, but will invariably suggest where else to try. The majority employing young self styled technical assistants ( who may have done a 3 month course before they were employed), won't have a clue and will try and persuade you that you are living in the dark ages, and that the part you need, went out of production with the Beatles.- At a slightly lower although more common level, the supply of consumables like Rubber Water Pump Impellors, Rubber Hoses, End caps and Gaskets. These parts are also made by third parties and are available almost anywhere, (look on the local internet). Of course there are a myriad of shape and sizes of hoses, but if you visit any substantial motor parts shop, with the damaged items, there is little doubt, that they will be able to supply you with a suitable replacement, even if it is two parts joined with a short metal tube and clips. The same applies for most electrical items and instruments, including sensors, thermostats, even zinc anode screws for engine blocks and heat exchangers. Don't be put off by the main dealers assistant, or the sharp intake of breath by his manager, Shop around, before you send overseas, for that part that costs more to freight than it costs to buy... h the boat

[JPA Cate]

Yes, also, bearing shops, hardware stores, and agricultural or irrigation supply stores are your buddies. Look for the older men who faces show they're experienced.

Ann

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Yes, also, bearing shops, hardware stores, and agricultural or irrigation supply stores are your buddies. Look for the older men who faces show they're experienced.

Ann

+ 1 Amen to that Ann. Tractor Supply for all Kubota parts.

[Cheechako]

an interesting aside. My 47 ft mono had the Mercedes Nanni diesel in it. It was essentially a 240D Mercedes. The cheapest engine parts I ever bought were from the Mercedes auto dealer. It was unbelievable... I bought spares from them before leaving Annapolis. Evidently Mercedes does (did?)not want to gouge you on old parts. A water pump was $28... that's right $28 in the USA! A full gasket set was about $90 as I remember...

[h the boat]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

an interesting aside. My 47 ft mono had the Mercedes Nanni diesel in it. It was essentially a 240D Mercedes. The cheapest engine parts I ever bought were from the Mercedes auto dealer. It was unbelievable... I bought spares from them before leaving Annapolis. Evidently Mercedes does (did?)not want to gouge you on old parts. A water pump was $28... that's right $28 in the USA! A full gasket set was about $90 as I remember...

Good morning Cheechako, The gasket set is about the right price, but a water pump from Mercedes is normally more than 10 times what you had been charged, perhaps the guy made an uncommon mistake in your favour. I was quoted within the last six months for a similar item from Mercedes in the UK more than £380. and in Spain for the same item €430. I eventually purchased the item from a motor parts store in Spain ( in a box labled "Quinton Hazel " with the Mercedes part number cast in), for less than €120..Spain is not noted as being a particularly low cost area within Europe. h the boat

[jimbunyard]

I worked at a Detroit Diesel distributorship for about five years in the early 80's, the word then was, "We do service because we have to, we sell engines and transmissions at or near cost to get the product out there, and we make our money selling parts."

Now I realize that that is a gross oversimplification, albeit one with some truth. A business's business is to make money, there is no morality involved, the only ethic is profit. As it should be. And as any shrewd businessman or accountant can tell you, profit is a variously visaged vector that can be found in any place at any time.

As for this being the 'fault' of multinational corporations, well I assume that most of them are publically owned. And that means that anyone who is making money on investments in the stock market is, by default, responsible for these shenanigans. Not pointing any fingers....

Because....Where would we be without them? (loaded guestion, I know) I mean, my little Volvo MD2020, which is actually a Perkins M20, which is actually an ISM (ever heard of them? they're one of the largest industrial manufacturers in Japan) 103-07, gets me out of my slip, a mile through the twisty neighborhood canals to open water reliably regardless of the wind direction, in about 15 minutes. In some conditions it would be impossible to sail.

So what to do? Figure out what you have. Talk to people that know, the old guy or girl in the garage or parts house. Sharpen your internet search skills. Make it yourself. I know my raw water pump is made by Johnson and where to buy parts for it, and it sure ain't Volvo. I also know the engine/transmission coupler is made by Hurth in Germany but is proprietary to Volvo and costs 800.00 from them. If that goes out I'll get a comparable Hurth/ZF gear with cplg and F/W hsg for a Perkins off Craigslist or Ebay and be done with the Volvo setup. And I can't resist this response when I found out how much Volvo wants for their exhaust riser (see attached). About 150.00 plus my labor for a 316L stainless riser with replaceable water jacket (not that I'll probably ever need to replace it).

But back to your point.

There are instances when OEM parts can be better than aftermarket, such as when the OEM makes them themselves or contracts them out to another supplier under a higher standard than is normally produced by that supplier (although with increasing globalization I think that this may become less and less the case). The problem, as you hinted at, is knowing when this is so, so education is key.

Which leads back to us, the end users. The multi nationals will always be there (barring some catastrophic cultural upheaval), making as much as they can, wherever they can, from the rich, the ignorant and those in a bind. If we can, through shared experience and intelligence, find a way around their insouciance, I doubt seriously that it will affect them in the least. As Barnum (or Hannum, you choose) said, "there's one born every minute." If we don't like it, then it's up to us to not be one, though it would be nice for the multi nationals to remember how they got where they are, at least once in a while.

[KenNorris49]

Given that most of us, clearly some more than others, have had experience of seeking out cheaper alternatives, is there a forum or noticeboard device where these experiences are or can be shared? Or is this forum it?
Maybe a consumer-driven, OEM cross-referencing database?

[jimbunyard]

Ken

Not that I know of, but it's a good idea. Maybe talk to one of the moderators here about getting one started. There's plenty of traffic on this site.....

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by h the boat

Good morning Cheechako, The gasket set is about the right price, but a water pump from Mercedes is normally more than 10 times what you had been charged, perhaps the guy made an uncommon mistake in your favour. I was quoted within the last six months for a similar item from Mercedes in the UK more than £380. and in Spain for the same item €430. I eventually purchased the item from a motor parts store in Spain ( in a box labled "Quinton Hazel " with the Mercedes part number cast in), for less than €120..Spain is not noted as being a particularly low cost area within Europe. h the boat

You better start shopping on the internet! Right now you can get the non OEM ones on line as low as $23
here's just one 240D water pump example: 1974-1983 Mercedes 240D Water Pump - Cooling System - Airtex 74-83 240D Water Pump - 16075-07078290 - PartsGeek

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by KenNorris49

Given that most of us, clearly some more than others, have had experience of seeking out cheaper alternatives, is there a forum or noticeboard device where these experiences are or can be shared? Or is this forum it?
Maybe a consumer-driven, OEM cross-referencing database?

This would be a great category to ad to Cruiser's Forum!

[UNCIVILIZED]

Some real wisdom in here, I'll have to come back & read it again, just so it properly uploads into the archives North of my neck, properly.

[h the boat]

Good morning Jimbunyard, I am happy that you agree with my sentiments, and appreciate that I am talking to one of the many that have already discovered the real truth. ISM in Japan/ Korea/and now China, were absorbed into the Perkins Engines Grouping, many years ago, even before Ford started to use the "Perkins Peranha" diesel in their Mondeo cars, which was manufactured in Japan at that time with the Ford logo ( the engine I Mean not the car). The real future problem is, at what point does a well run and well meaning Major Producer, become a restrictive monopoly... as the direct result of any Political or financial influence...- Every business is expected to make a profit, or it could not exist, but there is a vast difference between cost related, reasonable, and exorbitant. Generally, the lower end of the marine industry, by that I mean not the large shipping suppliers and providers, have consistently since the 1850's overpriced their goods and services, on the pretext that it is a very limited and specialised market, and that the users of their services and supplies are very well able to afford to pay... Again what a nonsense. Particularly in modern times, when the same item is used in so many different and differently priced applications.. It is only by the publicity given to these conditions will the general public and essential users, seek the alternative label, usually from an identical source, thereby controlling cost by demand... h the boat.

[Blue Stocking]

True story. Had a Volvo gas V8 in a SeaRay. Had the arm - mounted raw water pump, crankshaft driven. Marine Center, top of stairs, Volvo parts. Bottom of stairs, Johnson pumps, iirc. Bottom, 1/3rd the price, same pump.

[jimbunyard]

h,

I wish I had your optimism and faith in 'free market' forces.

As far as I know, ISM is still a subsidiary of IHI and builds engines for Perkins (who is owned by Caterpillar) under a joint venture, the designs are owned by IHI, I think, and licensed to Perkins/Cat.

I think the real point there is that we, the little people, are so far from these board room games that their workings and nuances are completely opaque to us, as ours seem to be to them.

That's not to say I condone them.

So are there viable soulutions?

In the real world, I'd have to say, no. The inertia built into the system is so great that, barring the aforementioned catastrophic cultural upheaval (maybe not a bad thing if it allowed an organic, ground up restructuring based on a reality based ethic) any hope of changing it, by any standard economic market forces, is virtually nil.

And, to get on my soapbox again, it seems that one of the main reasons is rooted in the system of publically owned corporations and
their supporting systems (I'll leave those to your imagination). A good publically owned corporation (in my own personal ideal world) would be one in which the workers in the company owned the company, made decisions about how the company was run, and earned money based on their performance. It's been tried and has worked....

Regarding captive and so-called 'luxury' markets, the perils of monopoly and monopsony to a 'free' market are well documented. As the overall population has less money to spend, corporations can (and do) dictate where, how and what you buy. Ever watched a TV show?
There are 4 Walmarts within the city limits of the town I live in. With a population of less than 30,000.

I agree it is, to a degree, nonsense. But it is a situation that can be worked around, as you and I well know. It's all about knowledge.

Take for instance Blue Stocking above. He probably knows, but how many others are aware that the Volvo engine he had is probably a Chevy and if not that a Ford and that all the basic engine parts and most of the ancillary engine parts can be had from their respective manufacturers for less than 1/2 Volvos' price? How many even know how to tell if it's a Chevy or a Ford?

For some people, (especially those with money, apparently) ignorance really is bliss (yeah I'm a racist). For the rest of us it's a pain in the ass. Though I wonder what we'd do if everything was fairly priced and everyone was well paid?

Guess it'd be a brave new world.

[goboatingnow]

While in general parts are interchangeable between oem engines, you have to be careful. Often marine builders tweak parts over the underlying oem engine. Where for example there are significant differences in horsepower from the oem engine , you need to be careful sourcing major critical engine parts.

Dave


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