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Old 07-11-2017, 19:09   #16
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Seems unlikely to me, but if you're that certain, go for it.
I am not certain at all, thats why I highly appreciate every input.
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Old 07-11-2017, 19:42   #17
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

As you see from the posts, they all use several batteries in series. Higher voltage, lower current and smaller conductors for better efficiency.

It will be much harder than replacing with normal diesel, wherever you do it, do not delude yourself.
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Old 07-11-2017, 19:58   #18
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

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As you see from the posts, they all use several batteries in series. Higher voltage, lower current and smaller conductors for better efficiency.

It will be much harder than replacing with normal diesel, wherever you do it, do not delude yourself.
Waterman, I wish that connecting my batteries in series would be the most difficult task here
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Old 07-11-2017, 21:12   #19
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Wink Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

Surprised you can't get diesel installation in HK. But you would be money ahead by paying someone to deliver the boat to Taiwan and having a professional diesel installation.

I imagine the extra batteries required for electric propulsion when not running the generator pose significant problems in storage space and weight. And they will need replacement several times compared to a diesel. To avoid short battery life you will have to monitor AH usage closely.

Add cost of 220V to 48V smart battery charger. And unless this charger is capable of high current you won't be able to run the DC motor at full output very long.

As an aside, I am curious how can you run all the 12V systems on the boat without having another separate 12V battery bank? Just using the first of the batteries in the 48V bank will cause that battery to be unmatched to the other 3.

Well, it works for submarines.
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Old 07-11-2017, 21:38   #20
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

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Waterman, I wish that connecting my batteries in series would be the most difficult task here
Right, but I was referring to the difficulty of the whole project. My fault for not being clear.
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Old 07-11-2017, 23:45   #21
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

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Ok, I have to add more info.

1. I am located in Hong Kong. It is very difficult to replace the engine here. It is very expensive and majority of mechanics are not reliable. Then getting reliable mechanics to do a custom oddball job is likely going to be even harder.

2. The boat will be used for coastal sailing. So most of the time the engine will be running only to get to my mooring and out. This is about 5 mins at 10% power or so.This is actually viable...until you get in a situation where you actually need the power.

3. I understand that 40hp diesel engine is about 20hp electric engine bcz of alternator, pumps etc loads. Please correct me if I am wrong.No, not even close.

4. 8kw coming out of my genset will give me 6-7 knots in calm conditions.Probably not and any kind of headwind or waves and you may not be able to even hold position. Keep in mind, the 8kw is likely peak output. Steady output is lower and you have losses in the system.
If you are lucky, yo might be able to continuously supply 5kw at the prop shaft.
For reference, on our smaller 34' catamaran, if we deployed the 5hp dingy outboard on a bracket, flat out in calm conditions, we got up to 3kts after a few minutes. You have a significantly larger boat but not much more HP proposed.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:24   #22
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

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My 2nd Electric Boat is a Formosa 47 with an Electric Yacht, QuietTorque™ 20.0 – 20kW, 48v, system with a Kobota Marine diesel 48V 20kW DC generator from Ample Power Company. I did the install myself.
I leave and return to the dock or anchor under electric power. It is nice not having to talk over the diesel engine. Nice to have the diesel generator even though I don't use if very often.


*Is it practical - for me yes


*Can I motor all day if I want - yes, but never have


*Was it more expensive than just replacing the dead 90hp Ford Lehman - Yes if you just count parts.


*Did I kill the resale value - much easier to sell a boat with a working electric motor than an non-working diesel motor. I didn't have any problem selling my last electric only boat, will find out if I ever put her up for sale.


*What I like -
1. not having to power up the diesel to leave the dock
2. Being able to go under power at the push of a handle
3. quite motor sailing, I can even hear prop cavitation and know to back off the throttle.
4. Smaller diesel engine has less noise than my old 90hp
5.I can run the electric motor at very low RPM, which has been helpful in tight docking situations
6. System takes less space in the engine compartment making it easier to get in there and do the minimal maintenance required.


*What I don't like-
1. I still have a diesel motor
2. I have to spend more time monitoring battery state of charge and water level.
A good point about low RPM since diesels don't like that.
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:26   #23
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

G550,

Electric propulsion is the future for marina based sailing. For me the major benefits are greater efficiency at slow speed, instant acceleration, quiet and vibration free. lt will cost the same or more than a straight replacement of your diesel and the learning curve is substantial. You would be better to order the replacement diesel from abroad and install it yourself vs. learning and building an electric propulsion system.

For cruising (most of us are cruisers here), the benefits of a hybrid electric propulsion system are few (mostly lower noise levels) but the complexity and inefficiency is a big drawback at present. The key component is designing (and making available cheaply) propellers that a matched to the torque characteristics of electrical motors. We are not there yet.

A couple of general comments if you decide to do it.

- In terms of batteries/motor, you want to go permanent magnet AC motors, as high voltage as possible (72, 90 and higher), golf cart batteries (need to water them often)

- Spend time researching and selecting the optimal propeller for your typical cruising speed. This will make a difference. I wish they had small controllable pitch propellers.

Good luck.

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Old 10-11-2017, 20:05   #24
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

Thats what computer model suggests:

Hunter 450

LOA: 44.25' /

LWL: 38.58'

Beam: 14.00'

Displacement: 26180 lbs.



Kts Watts

1.3 360

2.7 720

3.9 2160

4.7 3600

5.2 5760

6.6 10800

8.0 19440 A 20kW motor approaches hull speed

8.6 23760 A 25kW motor will reach hull speed with reserve power

Hull speed 8.26
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Old 15-11-2017, 15:47   #25
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

I have a somewhat smaller boat that I repowered electric, so I am speaking from experience more than just conventional wisdom, wishful thinking, urban legend, theory spreadsheets books or formulae.

1. Forget about 12v. The current demands would be hyooooooge. Lets say you are just ghosting along at 2kw which should push your boat at around 2kt in flat conditions. Divide 2000/12 and see how much current that is. And this is just creeping along. What about 10kw? Okay let's make it 12kw which I am guessing would push you along at a smart 4 to 5kts and that is 1000 amps. Big wire for your cables. big wire in your motor windings. Which creates its own problems. Big powerful motors are almost always ran at much higher voltages. My little boat is set up for 48v and coincidentally my main bank is 8 6v GC2 golf cart batteries, similar to your T105 setup, but in series. You should be looking at a system running 96 to 144v, or maybe more. An electric car motor and controller might work well. But you will want 3x the capacity of a typical ecar, for a realistic range. The usual BLDC boat motor is not going to give you satisfying performance against wind and current.

I would avoid turnkey systems. They cost 3x what it costs to learn how to design an electric drive system, source components, and build it yourself. My entire plant cost me about $2300 after selling the old Atomic. I could have bought a new Beta 10 for about $7300 I think.

Electric has some serious advantages in maneuverability. There is NO MINIMUM IDLE SPEED. You can ghost into a slip at 30RPM, if you like. No more bumping in and out of gear and watching your stern wag around all over the place while back and filling. Just get her backing nice and easy, and steer with the rudder. Steering only gets easier as you slowly reduce power. Instant power. Instant FULL power. Instant reverse. No warmup. Always "on" if you want it. Twist of the knob and you got torque on the shaft. Quiet. Not dead silent, but very quiet. Not stinky. Not greasy. And yeah it costs about 30% more to run an electric drive from a genset vs simply turning the prop with a diesel. BUT... kw/hrs of shore power are cheap. Shore power charging for day or weekend jaunts works out well.

Total cost cn be pretty low but depends on the batteries more than anything else. You can go kinda far. You can go kinda fast. You can have a light compact bank. Take your pick. You only get ONE. Lots of compromises have to be made.

Solar and regen are basically free electricity, but it takes a LOT of solar to keep a big bank charged. More than you can crowd onto most monohulls. Mast sails and rigging shade panels and kill your output. Regen is really only practical in double digit speeds.

If you do not have a working diesel, you do not reduce your resale value by installing electric. You simply don't increase it by much. But I would consider an appropriate sized marinized Kubota diesel tractor engine from Beta. Great engines, easy to service. Cheap parts. And if you want, you could always piggyback an electric motor over the shaft so you could use electric drive, or the diesel, either one. Win/win.

Electric is not all peas and carrots. It has its cons, too. Consider carefully. Do your research. It really is a complex topic. Start by joining the Yahoo Electric Boats group.
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Old 15-11-2017, 20:09   #26
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

As a back up to what he said , the Toyota Prius is over 200 VDC
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Old 16-11-2017, 05:20   #27
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

Thanks for posting. Much appreciated,

Do I have to have 2 different batteries packs: One for 12v (instruments etc) and another pack for 96v or there is a way to use one bank for both?
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Old 16-11-2017, 07:22   #28
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

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Thanks for posting. Much appreciated,

Do I have to have 2 different batteries packs: One for 12v (instruments etc) and another pack for 96v or there is a way to use one bank for both?
You can have a DC/DC converter to supply your 12v needs. Cheap sealed units with integral heat sinks are available and I have a 30a unit I will get around to installing some day. But a separate 12v bank is good backup for radio, etc, and that is what I recommend. You could have one 12v bank and also a DC/DC converter fed from your propulsion bank, for redundancy. You will of course want a starting battery for your generator, and capability of jumping from your house bank in event of a start battery failure. Also, you can eliminate 12v loads and go with high voltage DC or else inexpensive 110/220v household or industrial appliances and equipment, and run them off an inverter. Sine wave inverters are getting to be very efficient and inexpensive. I MOST STRONGLY suggest going with LED nav and house lights. This saves a lot of juice and the LEDs last a long time. Sucks to climb the mast every time an anchor or masthead light goes out, huh?

Some guys will simply tap a propulsion bank at 12v for 12v loads. This is NOT a good idea though a backup bilge pump connected in this manner is maybe okay. Having a connection available could save your bacon some day by powering your VHF or even HF radio. As a general rule though you do not want to place a load on only part of the bank so you definitely do not want to supply your DC board in this manner. In an emergency, you do what you gotta do.
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Old 16-11-2017, 07:53   #29
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

Thank you very much!

If you have time, can you please tell me what are the components of your propulsion equipment that you got for 2300 USD. I will look into it.
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Old 16-11-2017, 08:57   #30
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Re: Electric repower Hunter 450 Passage

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Thank you very much!

If you have time, can you please tell me what are the components of your propulsion equipment that you got for 2300 USD. I will look into it.
ME0201014201 5kw BLDC (aka PMAC) motor, $399 shipped. Kelly controller, 300a 48v, I think about $450. 8 6v GC2 220ah golf cart batteries, $85/ea plus core charge so about $800. Cable, wire, steel for motor mount, a couple hundred more. $450 for a cast iron enclosed reduction gearbox. Sold the still running but elderly Atomic 4 for I think $300 so subtract that. Oh I almost forgot... originally had folding prop. Neighbor gave me two 4 blade 14x10 RH props so I upgraded my prop for free, and have a spare prop. Tax man got his cut. Various other doodads and hardware to make it all go together. Couplings and stuff. This system is suitable for boats in the 25 to 35 foot range. More power, and a bigger battery, and of course that budget is out the window. Also prices have gone up in the 4 years I have been electric.

I have since bought a used 12kw ME0912 motor but currently run the 5kw 4201 due to a hall effect sensor failure in the big motor that I haven't fixed yet. I have upgraded the controller to a sine wave controller, another $500 or so. But the original installation worked just fine. The sine wave controller is a little quieter, is all. The bigger motor didn't give all that much greater performance than the smaller one. However, it also doesn't use any more power than the smaller one. It WOULD give me a lot more power if I went with a higher voltage or else a bank that could source a lot more current.

I could have bought a turnkey system for probably 3x as much, and not had to learn anything about electric propulsion system engineering. But naaaaaah.
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