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Old 10-12-2009, 03:19   #31
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According to my calculationn if you want to be on the safe side with your 6 ton vessel
you need 6 x 2.0 KW as a minimal power , we calculate with 2.5 Kw per ton of weight in order to be able to make some progress into a wind force 5

Greeting

Gideon
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Old 27-07-2010, 11:12   #32
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I thought I would update this thread with some Battery info posted at this site.
Electric Car Battery Prices Dropping Much Faster than Expected : Gas 2.0

This has to do with the cost of batteries and the drop in prices.

Also 1 of the 3 Lagoon 410E cats has made a trip up from Florida to Mass. over the last few weeks. The new captain, his wife a 2 small children stopped by in Solomons on their way up over the 4th and we were able to briefly discuss the differences between our systems, even though they were built about 6 months apart a number of changes were made on my boat by Solomons and the previous owner. Hull 2 (his) went mostly up the ICW under genset and minimum sail until they got to Norfolk. Much more sailing from there on up. They had an overheating issue with a new genset in Florida and the controllers (we think possibly a relay went south) in NY. Other than that the trip went well. I'll update once I've had a chance to talk in length with Scott.

Steve in Solomons MD
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Old 24-11-2010, 02:42   #33
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Hyprdrv, it appears your new battery is almost here

New Nanowire Battery Life Reaches From iPods to Electric Cars - Popular Mechanics

New Nanowire Battery Life Reaches From iPods to Electric Cars

By Logan Ward
October 1, 2009 12:00 AM
According to Moore's Law, the speed of computer chips grows at an exponential rate. Sadly, there is no such rule regarding battery capacity. So while computer chips trip over themselves getting faster, the batteries that power them--in laptops, cell phones and other chip-driven devices--lag behind, constrained by chemistry. However, thanks to a breakthrough by Stanford researcher Yi Cui, the lithium-ion batteries that power most of these devices may soon be able to hold 10 times as much power as the ones powering today's gadgets.

Lithium-ion batteries work by transferring lithium ions from an anode, typically made from carbon, to a metal-oxide cathode. Carbon anodes can only hold 1 ion per 6 carbon atoms. A silicon anode, by comparison, can hold a much greater charge--4.4 lithium ions per single silicon atom. But because silicon swells to four times its volume when charged, using it in a battery causes the anode to break apart, rendering standard silicon useless for power. The breakthrough is in the discovery that, while 100-nanometer-wide silicon nanowires expand, they do not break. This phenomenon is a mystery. Maybe it's their small size or shape that keeps them from breaking, or perhaps they are just fundamentally different. "But," Cui says, "the results are exciting."

A paper published this week in the journal Nature Nanotechnology gives the results of 30 charge-and-discharge cycles. But since submitting his paper six months ago, Cui claims to have pushed his battery through 1000 cycles. The results? An energy storage capacity of more than 4200 milliampere hours per gram, or 10 times that of a standard lithium-ion battery.

Imagine a laptop that could run for nearly two days or an electric car with the power to motor from New York to Chicago on a single charge. In fact, improvements in battery energy capacity could positively impact nearly everyone, extending the life--and shrinking the size--of cellphones, iPods and portable computers, and maybe even giving plug-in cars the edge they need to catch on.

And while modern lithium-ion batteries are, for the most part, safe and stable, a couple of highly-publicized laptop explosions in recent years means that a new power source's basic safety can not be overlooked. "We have fundamental reasons to believe a silicon nanowire anode is going to be safer," Cui says. Battery safety, he says, depends on "volume expansion and the surface chemistry of the electrode." His nanowires can handle the volume expansion. And he says tests show that the surface chemistry is more stable than in batteries with carbon anodes. "Of course to prove something to be safe, you've got to accumulate lots of data. We hope to do that."

"Usually people want low surface area to make batteries safe," says Mark Obrovac, senior scientist at the 3M Lithium Ion Battery Laboratory. "The surface area of a nanowire electrode must be astronomical." Adds Obrovac: "It's a great thing he's done making silicon cycle, but it will require a lot of work before we'll see this in a commercial application."
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Old 24-11-2010, 08:04   #34
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Great post Hyprdrv. I work on Seimens automation products in a factory setting. I face many of the same issues, poor support, product changes etc... A lot of that is the learnig curve of new technology and new markets. It will be several years before electric drive is a mature industry. It you are a doit yourselfer and have some knowledge of electronics and power now is a good time to get in on the curve. If not you will spend a lot more money than just buying a diesel. The efficiency isn't the point, although electric drives have a wider curve than IC engines. The main point is the flexibility it gives you to have a large supply of managable power that can come from multiple sources, and be used for any purpose on the boat.
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Old 24-11-2010, 09:27   #35
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Thanks Lance for the info. I'm good for another couple years on the batteries I have and hope the new technology keeps making headway. I'm confident it will.
Update:
As for the 3 410E's:
410E #1 is getting ready for a cruise to South America from New Orleans.
410E #2 is wintering in Boston getting ready to head to the Caribbean next spring.
410E #3 (me) is sitting in Solomons ready for a haul out to paint the bottom and replace the packing in the stuffing boxes. We're hoping to do the Delmarva Peninsula next summer. My first grandchild is due in June so it may be a slow month for sailing according to the Admiral's (the new Grandma) schedule. I've installed the PakTrakr monitoring system and love the info I'm getting on the state of the Batteries. I do have one that is going to be replaced but overall the pack looks great. All other parts of the system have worked flawlessly all of 2010. The cost of Electrical maintenance and upgrade items this year is under $2000 . Cost of Diesel for 2 seasons = $60 and sailing as much as possible.

Steve in Solomons MD
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Old 24-11-2010, 12:30   #36
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Beta MArine now offers a hybrid package which bolts to the front of their diesel engines. IT almost doubles the cost but I'm sure prices will head south in the near future.
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Old 24-11-2010, 12:51   #37
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I really can't wait until they come into their own.. I would love to do away with diesel altogether if possible or at least have a hybrid where my fuel tank and bank of batteries/solar/wind can keep that reserve for nearly a year..

Waiting anxiously... Thanks for the heads up..
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Old 24-11-2010, 16:08   #38
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Well I must say that Gideon’s Fastcat is on the very top of my wish list after many years of searching I think his propulsion system is fantastic coupled with what I believe is the best built boat, still out of my price range although I was surprised no strike that astounded at how reasonable his prices are for the build he is doing.
One thing I thought would be interesting for people to have a look at and I hope I’m not hijacking the thread in any way is
WhisperGenTM heat and power systems
As an alternative to generators
Automotive grade diesel consumption 0.75L/h at max output
Models 12V diesel fired, 24V diesel fired, 24V kerosene fired (available on request)
Dry Weight 90kg
Although I do feel they are a tad expensive
Thank you for your enquiry on the Whispergen Climate & Power system.
(Australian Dollars)
Whispergen pricing is made up of a few different items –
Whispergen Unit Price – $15,000 (+GST)
Installation Kit – $2,300 (+GST)
Installation Labour - $2,000 (Budgetary pricing).
Commissioning – $500 (+GST & Travel – must be commissioned by a Whispergen agent)

If you have any further questions please feel free to contact us.


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Old 24-11-2010, 17:13   #39
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Quote from Hyprdrv " The generator is undersized. I have a 16kw (around 90a) genset and really need a 22 to 25kw developing around 200a."

What weight this generator ? Diesel fuel consumption/hour ?
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Old 25-11-2010, 06:23   #40
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Laidback,
It's really a wish list item, the 16kw works but for maximum drive and recharge the 22kw would be ideal. Some of the larger Electric drive systems are running 2 smaller ones. The other part of this wish would be a DC genset like the 22kw by Polar Marine DC-22-A which weighs in at 430lb. This would eliminate the AC to DC rectifier and a few other wires. This is about 1/2 the weight and size of the Northern Lights unit.

Steve in Solomons MD
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Old 25-11-2010, 16:11   #41
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This is an excellent subject, and Steve you have gathered a ton of information and knowledge.

My question is , why can't an electric system work on a cruiser? These systems are always mentioned in sailing boats.

Steve has stated he has run his boat at 8 knots. Most cruisers doing outside passages would cruise at 8 knots.

Steve has said his generator uses under 1 GPH. What if one was to use the Genset all the time? At 8 knots my fuel burn is 30 LPH. The idea of only one moving part per engine appeals to me as opposed to all the parts to run 2 V8 engines.

For a run up the Australian east coast to the Whitsunday's and beyond would be approx 4000 NM return trip, after a bit of exploring.

Just think of doing that at 5LPH and without worrying about break downs.

I read that people seem to be worried about the weight of the batteries.
When you remove 2 V8 the weight should more then cancell out.
Now I only carry 580 LTS of fuel, There are other boats that carry thousands of litres of fuel which is a lot of weight to cart around.

I'm I only dreaming or can you guys see where I'm coming from?
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Old 25-11-2010, 18:22   #42
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Hi Flybridge 31,


I can see where you are coming from, I can only talk from a sailing catamaran point of view as that’s my solitary vision, I have done a lot of investigating into propulsion and “For Me” it will be electric all the way.



I have contacted Gideon from africancats.com and he is happy to sell the propulsion systems he produces so that may well be my answer to re-powering an older cat.



As to the battery bank weight vs engine and fuel dead right and with Lithium Ion batteries the weight power ratio is tipping in our favour.



Just because it’s power boat it doesn’t mean you can’t have solar cells and a wind generator on board in fact the extra savings would pay them off quicker in relation to the fact that you’re motoring and burning energy on all passages.
I can’t recall if this link has been posted here, but it may be of interest to you.


Blue Planet Catamarans - Eco-friendly Catamarans powered by Torqeedo electric outboard motors

Good luck and
Kindest regards


Lancelots
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Old 25-11-2010, 20:37   #43
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Hi Lancelots

Thanks for your reply, that's an interesting video.

I would rather an inboard set up, and you're right there would be nothing wrong with solar panels and wind gen.

As I read these posts I see there are a lot of fors and againest towards electric power.

But my thoughts are if you're willing to use a genset distance shouldn't be a problem. For the sailors amongest us you guys are happy to hear the wind, and thats fare enough but for us power boaters we would be lost if we weren't hearing a motor running some where.

Kind regards
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Old 26-11-2010, 23:26   #44
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Hi Guys,

I'm surprised this thread has died down.

I think this is an interesting subject and I thought there would be a lot of different opinions that people would like to share.

Especially from the powerboaters.

Kind Regards
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Old 19-12-2010, 22:32   #45
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Hi Fastcat

Do you have any up dates on your system.

I found it very interesting.
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