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Old 16-12-2011, 19:13   #61
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Re: DIY Injection Pump Rebuild

I wonder if there are any brand new CAV pumps for the 4.108 sitting in some wharehouse somewhere?
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Old 17-12-2011, 05:13   #62
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Re: Even the Pro's Don't Always Get it Right!

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
That price included the rebuild--$689 USD--plus the cost of a replacement oil filter, secondary fuel filter, replacement lift pump, which I was adviced I should have replaced, replacement high pressure lines from the IP to the various injectors, together with replacement gaskets, crush-washers, "olives" et al. Since my earlier post I have learned that the Stop Valve shaft was replaced (the old shaft was in the sealed box that contained the rebuilt pump when I picked up). According to the Perkins mechanic, it is not impossible to install that shaft 180 out which he indicates could cause the described difficulty. It will be interesting to see what Southeast Power has to say of this hypothises.

Unfortunately, the boatyard and the Perkins repair shop are about 60 miles apart and there doesn't seem to be much interest on either parties' part in meeting to "discuss" the matter.

Unfortunately, while I am a rather good structural/dynamics engineer--or was until I got "retired"--I am a lousey mechanic/electrician. I can get by following detailed instructions, but only just. I firmly believe in hiring the right expert men/women for a job and letting them do their work without interference. Usually it works.

N'any case, thanks all for the support. We shall see. I will report progress if and when (Christmas cruise planning temporarily on hold!)
My first reaction when I read your earlier post was that the mechanic possibly hooked the throttle and shutoff linkage up wrong. And the rebuild shop can sometimes position the stop screws on the throttle and shut off to work with a different linkage than the one you have. Then they put one of those little "don't you dare adjust this" seals on the screw. This can scare and confuse you into hooking the linkage up backwards. I know this sounds loopy, but I actually had this problem with a rebuilt pump once. If either of these is the problem, you just need to stick your head down there near it and scratch it a while until you figure out how to hook it up the right way.

That's the trouble with hiring diesel mechanics to work on boat engines, IMHO. There are so many different models of engines, of such varying ages, installed in such a wide array of configurations, that the mechanic often has to spend oodles of time experimenting, exploring, and reworking. This gets very expensive.

I'd check out the possibility of a linkage problem before I'd pull that pump back off. Don't despair. She'll be running before spring!
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Old 17-12-2011, 06:56   #63
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Re: DIY Injection Pump Rebuild

S&W Diesel Wilmington Ca. $600-650 all in (including mounting gasket), with 1 year warranty.
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Old 17-12-2011, 13:54   #64
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Re: DIY Injection Pump Rebuild

Thanks much Cburger I will pm you at some point here. Appreciate it! Seahunter.. thank you. I should clarify; SW quoted me the same and the extra 200 was removal and re-installation.
I just found out that Dumas in Long Beach will rebuild for 450 if I bring it in.
You guys are great!
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Old 19-12-2011, 17:05   #65
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Failed Injection Pump Rebuild--Update

Well... Today I took our IP up to Southeast Power to be re-examined. The head of the shop came out and kindly invited me into the back where the testing was/is done. (Frankly, I have been in a lot of machine shops over the years but I have never, ever, seen one as clean and orderly as this on was.)

The shop foreman and a technician hooked our pump up to a testing device with a lathe-like turret to spin the shaft up, connected a "fuel" input line to the pump and four "injection lines" that simulate the lines from the pump to the injectors on the yacht. A test fluid with the same physical properties as diesel fuel is pushed to the pump which is powered at various RPM's by the spinning turret. Pressures and response from the pump were tested at roughly 200 RPM increments from 650 to over 3000 and pressures in the injection lines recorded. The "stop" shaft was also activated which showed the injector lines properly blocked--and pressure removed--at every RPM increment.

So. It looks like the pump is Okay. With this the shop forman calls our boatyard and discusses the matter with the owner with respect to the possibility that the fault may be somewhere else and they agree on some other tests at the yacht.

Then, as the technician is about to pull the pump for the test rig, he says, "Ya know, let me try one more test, just to be sure." So, they spin up the pump again, wait a moment, and pull the stop lever--WITHOUT EFFECT! With the Stop Shaft shoved in-- which should block fuel flow to the high pressure cyclinders in the pump, and should result in Zero Pressure in the injector lines--the pressure remains and the engine, accordingly, would have kept on running, as described by our mecahnic at the boatyard! (Frankly, I felt badly for the Shop Foreman, who was/is very personable, and who damned near had a heart attack on the spot with the sudden turn of events.)

So. With this, they immediately tore down the pump on the spot--in probably less than 5 minutes--and examined everything. Every shaft, seal, surface, spring, etc. in great detail. Finding nothing evidently amiss, they reassembled the pump, reset the dials, and re-ran the tests. Yikes--SAME FAILURE! THE STOP VALVE DIDN'T (Stop anything!).

Again. Five minutes to tear the damned pump down while similtaneously tearing hair our and nashing teeth. After further inspections, the technician exclaims--"I think I see a burr" in the stop-valve shaft cyclinder." Both guys confir and then hand the piece to me to inspect (as if I could see anything smaller than the Period at the end of a line of text in 10 point font!).

So, they proceed to polish the cyclinder with 1600 Grit Emory Paper, clean it and flush it out again, reassemble the pump yet again, and subject it to the same tests. PASSED (finally, thank goodness!). After another round of tests--just to be extra sure. The pump is dismounted, packaged, and I am on my way back to the boatyard, no having been charged for the 3+ hours of retesting and what-not.

So, tomorrow the boatyard shall re-install the pump yet again and we shall keep our fingers (and toes) crossed, and hope for the best. (Unfortunately, that shall not include any willingness to absorb any of our charges, however....)
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Old 19-12-2011, 19:28   #66
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Re: DIY Injection Pump Rebuild

And with that, it goes to show that even the experts can miss a very fine detail that a normal Joe mechanic might likely miss as well.
Good thing for the test bench! Can you imagine how may times you yourself would have had to pull it apart.
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Old 19-12-2011, 20:58   #67
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Re: Failed Injection Pump Rebuild--Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Well... Today I took our IP up to Southeast Power to be re-examined. The head of the shop came out and kindly invited me into the back where the testing was/is done. (Frankly, I have been in a lot of machine shops over the years but I have never, ever, seen one as clean and orderly as this on was.)

The shop foreman and a technician hooked our pump up to a testing device with a lathe-like turret to spin the shaft up, connected a "fuel" input line to the pump and four "injection lines" that simulate the lines from the pump to the injectors on the yacht. A test fluid with the same physical properties as diesel fuel is pushed to the pump which is powered at various RPM's by the spinning turret. Pressures and response from the pump were tested at roughly 200 RPM increments from 650 to over 3000 and pressures in the injection lines recorded. The "stop" shaft was also activated which showed the injector lines properly blocked--and pressure removed--at every RPM increment.

So. It looks like the pump is Okay. With this the shop forman calls our boatyard and discusses the matter with the owner with respect to the possibility that the fault may be somewhere else and they agree on some other tests at the yacht.

Then, as the technician is about to pull the pump for the test rig, he says, "Ya know, let me try one more test, just to be sure." So, they spin up the pump again, wait a moment, and pull the stop lever--WITHOUT EFFECT! With the Stop Shaft shoved in-- which should block fuel flow to the high pressure cyclinders in the pump, and should result in Zero Pressure in the injector lines--the pressure remains and the engine, accordingly, would have kept on running, as described by our mecahnic at the boatyard! (Frankly, I felt badly for the Shop Foreman, who was/is very personable, and who damned near had a heart attack on the spot with the sudden turn of events.)

So. With this, they immediately tore down the pump on the spot--in probably less than 5 minutes--and examined everything. Every shaft, seal, surface, spring, etc. in great detail. Finding nothing evidently amiss, they reassembled the pump, reset the dials, and re-ran the tests. Yikes--SAME FAILURE! THE STOP VALVE DIDN'T (Stop anything!).

Again. Five minutes to tear the damned pump down while similtaneously tearing hair our and nashing teeth. After further inspections, the technician exclaims--"I think I see a burr" in the stop-valve shaft cyclinder." Both guys confir and then hand the piece to me to inspect (as if I could see anything smaller than the Period at the end of a line of text in 10 point font!).

So, they proceed to polish the cyclinder with 1600 Grit Emory Paper, clean it and flush it out again, reassemble the pump yet again, and subject it to the same tests. PASSED (finally, thank goodness!). After another round of tests--just to be extra sure. The pump is dismounted, packaged, and I am on my way back to the boatyard, no having been charged for the 3+ hours of retesting and what-not.

So, tomorrow the boatyard shall re-install the pump yet again and we shall keep our fingers (and toes) crossed, and hope for the best. (Unfortunately, that shall not include any willingness to absorb any of our charges, however....)
Who is the owner of that shop? Name please?
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Old 19-12-2011, 21:13   #68
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Re: DIY Injection Pump Rebuild

...and why would they charge you for re-testing...they missed the burr, didn't they?
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Old 20-12-2011, 07:38   #69
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Re: DIY Injection Pump Rebuild

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
And with that, it goes to show that even the experts can miss a very fine detail that a normal Joe mechanic might likely miss as well.
Good thing for the test bench! Can you imagine how may times you yourself would have had to pull it apart.
Del--That "detail" was so fine, I couldn't see it, and likely wouldn't have seen it with a glass. The technician that spotted it--David--told me he had worked at the shop for 20+ years, having been trained in their apprentice program. While sitting in the waiting room after I first arrived, I was impressed by a wall covered--literally--with training certificates for the various mechanics and technicians from most of the major diesel engine manufacturers. The shop is the only "Perkins Certified" shop in southwest Florida.

I did ask about the elaborate "test bench". There were 6 of them for various makes of pumps and the Shop Foreman--Mr. John Heinz (Sp?)--explained that they cost upwards of $150K USD each (each had its own desktop computer hidden under its shroud as Mr. Heinz showed me).

I must say I was surprized at how (relatively) simple the pumps are, at least in the hands of a knowledgable technician. The parts are, however, miniscule, manyfold, and in the hands of an untrained person, not likely to get back into the device entirely properly. The adjustments to the pump are very precise--although with the bench, effected quite quickly. Once reassembled, the pump was placed on another bench and an elaborate timing alighment device employed. Also, I learned that the 4-108 IP has a "floating" drive shaft, and does not have bearings despite what the counter clerk had told me on the phone.

Remembering this thread (which I apologise for having hijacked), I asked these guys whether they thought someone could do this pump on their home work-bench and both laughed at that, saying maybe but it would be a total craps shot and neither of them would try it. (I don't think that was self promotion--neither needed it.)

For other's that asked, the Company is "Southest Power Systems" on Adamo Boulevard in Tampa, Fla. The shop forman, senior technician, is Mr. John Heinz, mentioned above. I do not know who owns the business but it is quite large, primarily servicing the trucking and industrial industry. One thing that struck me was the fact that there didn't seem to be anyone younger than mid-40's in evidence. I mentioned this to John and he indicated that they had few young people interested in industrial mechanics any longer and opined that the industry will soon face a severe shortage of trained technicians. It seems "technical and vocatioal training schools" are viewed as less desireable than attending college, no matter how worthless many college degrees have become and few are interested in becoming the "blue collar" emploees that were/are the back-bone of industry.

FWIW...
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Old 20-12-2011, 08:21   #70
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Re: DIY Injection Pump Rebuild

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
One thing that struck me was the fact that there didn't seem to be anyone younger than mid-40's in evidence. I mentioned this to John and he indicated that they had few young people interested in industrial mechanics any longer and opined that the industry will soon face a severe shortage of trained technicians. It seems "technical and vocatioal training schools" are viewed as less desireable than attending college, no matter how worthless many college degrees have become and few are interested in becoming the "blue collar" emploees that were/are the back-bone of industry.

FWIW...
....and there lies the problem...there is no one trained anymore. I'm a Toolmaker by trade. I was trained by a lot of old (some from the old country) Journeyman. It "was" a well paid profession. In the 80's everything started going offshore to cheap labor while the middleman made a few bucks. The country use to offer trade school training and apprentice programs to boot...not anymore. Now, we either have a bunch of gang-banger punks hanging out in front of liquor stores with little or no education or kids fresh out of university, far educated beyond their intelligence and capabilities.
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Old 21-12-2011, 14:32   #71
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Re: Failed Injection Pump Rebuild--Update

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
"I think I see a burr" in the stop-valve shaft cyclinder.
What kind of pump do you have? CAV DPA/mechanical governor does not have what they are describing. It uses the stop lever to turn the metering valve all the way to off position blocking the fuel flow to the rotor.
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Old 21-12-2011, 18:23   #72
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Re: Failed Injection Pump Rebuild--Update

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What kind of pump do you have? CAV DPA/mechanical governor does not have what they are describing. It uses the stop lever to turn the metering valve all the way to off position blocking the fuel flow to the rotor.
Perhaps I am using the wrong terminology. The govenor on our IP is hydraulic. The stop valve operates by insinuating itself between the fuel input line and the pump on the one hand and the pump body and the high pressure cyclinders for each injector on the other, in each case concurrently. "Closing" the valve seems to involve rotating a release mechanism which frees a plunger to slide downward within a cyclinder, blocking all of the aforementioned lines. The plunger is/appears to be spring actualted and, it would appear, that any obstruction can/will prevent the stop valve from operating properly.

For the record, with the foregoing comments/respones, it may seem/appear as if I know what I am talking about. I do not. I have a rough idea given what I've been told/instructed so what I have conveyed may be correct; or, may be complete rubbish. At this point all I know is that our yacht has been held hostage since October 17th and I would dearly like to get her back, with or without the Gol Dang engine if need be! The first 10 years of our sailing career was accomplished without an engine at all and I do miss those daze in some respects.

FWIW...
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Old 22-12-2011, 12:54   #73
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Finished At Last!

I just received a call from our Boat Yard that the yacht is reassembled and operating as normal with No Leaks (and no difficulty stopping). It seems the failure in the Stop Valve was at the heart of the difficulty. Further, the owner of the Boat Yard offerd he would "help us out" with the cost of second tear-down/re-installation. Any savings there will be helpful, of course, as--since the failure was in the rebuild and not of the yard's making--the yard had no obligation.

N'any case, I am glad this exercise if finally almost over.
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Old 23-12-2011, 07:00   #74
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Re: DIY Injection Pump Rebuild

That's great news!. So the yard is gona end up comping part of the bill even tho its pump shop's f-ck up. They are all thieves to me, but its nice the yard is doing that. I stuck with the same boat yard for 12 years partly because all I have them do is haul-out and launch, and every 5 years step down the mast. So no chance for f-ck ups.
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Old 23-12-2011, 08:31   #75
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Re: Failed Injection Pump Rebuild--Update

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Well... Today I took our IP up to Southeast Power to be re-examined. The head of the shop came out and kindly invited me into the back where the testing was/is done. (Frankly, I have been in a lot of machine shops over the years but I have never, ever, seen one as clean and orderly as this on was.)

The shop foreman and a technician hooked our pump up to a testing device with a lathe-like turret to spin the shaft up, connected a "fuel" input line to the pump and four "injection lines" that simulate the lines from the pump to the injectors on the yacht. A test fluid with the same physical properties as diesel fuel is pushed to the pump which is powered at various RPM's by the spinning turret. Pressures and response from the pump were tested at roughly 200 RPM increments from 650 to over 3000 and pressures in the injection lines recorded. The "stop" shaft was also activated which showed the injector lines properly blocked--and pressure removed--at every RPM increment.

So. It looks like the pump is Okay. With this the shop forman calls our boatyard and discusses the matter with the owner with respect to the possibility that the fault may be somewhere else and they agree on some other tests at the yacht.

Then, as the technician is about to pull the pump for the test rig, he says, "Ya know, let me try one more test, just to be sure." So, they spin up the pump again, wait a moment, and pull the stop lever--WITHOUT EFFECT! With the Stop Shaft shoved in-- which should block fuel flow to the high pressure cyclinders in the pump, and should result in Zero Pressure in the injector lines--the pressure remains and the engine, accordingly, would have kept on running, as described by our mecahnic at the boatyard! (Frankly, I felt badly for the Shop Foreman, who was/is very personable, and who damned near had a heart attack on the spot with the sudden turn of events.)

So. With this, they immediately tore down the pump on the spot--in probably less than 5 minutes--and examined everything. Every shaft, seal, surface, spring, etc. in great detail. Finding nothing evidently amiss, they reassembled the pump, reset the dials, and re-ran the tests. Yikes--SAME FAILURE! THE STOP VALVE DIDN'T (Stop anything!).

Again. Five minutes to tear the damned pump down while similtaneously tearing hair our and nashing teeth. After further inspections, the technician exclaims--"I think I see a burr" in the stop-valve shaft cyclinder." Both guys confir and then hand the piece to me to inspect (as if I could see anything smaller than the Period at the end of a line of text in 10 point font!).

So, they proceed to polish the cyclinder with 1600 Grit Emory Paper, clean it and flush it out again, reassemble the pump yet again, and subject it to the same tests. PASSED (finally, thank goodness!). After another round of tests--just to be extra sure. The pump is dismounted, packaged, and I am on my way back to the boatyard, no having been charged for the 3+ hours of retesting and what-not.

So, tomorrow the boatyard shall re-install the pump yet again and we shall keep our fingers (and toes) crossed, and hope for the best. (Unfortunately, that shall not include any willingness to absorb any of our charges, however....)

Thanks for the above post svHyLyte. I've been following this thread and posted before. Combined with the above post, you also stated earlier "The boatyard mechanic is Perkins trained and certified with 20+ years of experience. I have known him for 10+ years and the owners of the Boatyard for 19 years."
A proper pump shop has to be spotless and orderly, if they are not go elsewhere. So here you have experts with years and years of refined experiance still having a tough time finding out a simple problem. I stated before and I'll state it again. "When it comes to these pumps let the people that know what they are doing do it." This is NOT a job for the sailing shade tree mechanic. Anyone who has the equipment, the proper shop, is well versed, and experianced in pump rebuilds does not need advice about anything diesel related from a Internet forum. Getting lucky on ones own pump and Internet "How to" websites does not make one even close to an expert on pumps.
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