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Old 02-10-2006, 18:13   #16
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I agree that putting the sensor in after the tee is a solution, but how do I tell how much I have in each tank?
Real time consumption vs. level in the tank are not really related. The idea that you can mathematically integrate the real time values to determine fuel reserves isn't that great an idea and you need to have a redundancy to the system. Having the two separated is both safer and logical.

Having worked with data where the answer is based on an integrated value of real time data I can tell you the cost is through the roof. For a sail boat to attempt it is really beyond anything reasonable. Now if we are talking the QE II then maybe we could go somewhere but I doubt even they don't shove a long stick in the tank from time to time.
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Old 02-10-2006, 22:07   #17
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Ummmm, how do you tell what you have in the tank now?? Or are you refering to the computor doing the sums for you. If it is the monitor, you don't need to know what is int he tank. It simply works out the fuel used by summing (although a little more complicated that a simple sum) the fuel and it then calculates the amount left in the tank by simple subtraction. When the tank is filled, you will have to dial in the amount you filled it by. It has no sensor, as in an electronic float, to be able to measure the tank level.
Is that what you mean??
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Old 03-10-2006, 04:14   #18
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Here is a link to the Navman documentation for the D3200.

http://www.navman.com/upload/Marine/...pa_por_web.pdf

Figure 2-7 on page 9 clearly inidicates that one of the features of the system is having a graphical representation of the amount of fuel left in the tank. However, if you look at page 16, it does not show a single engine, twin tank setup as a valid configuration.

I don't need a QE2 style system as I stick my tanks now. This is a bit challenging to do when heeled. While knowing what my real time fuel consumption is on an aggregate basis would be an interesting data point, it would be most beneficial if I knew how much I had left in each tank since the switchover is a manual process.

Alas, it looks like it may be designed for much larger engines than are typically found on sailboats given the following from the Navman site:

"The flow in the return pipe back to the tank must be more than 25 litres (6.6 gal(US)) per hour."
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Old 03-10-2006, 12:42   #19
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Yeah thats substantial engine to get a return to tank of that volume.
I think the other point to consider is the cost versus fuel you could buy versus economy. It's nice to know the use of fuel to find that "sweet" spot of engine speed. In a big boat, powered only and big engine, this device is a great "tool". But in a small engine sail boat, it would have to be considered an expensive "gadget". The fuel saving found would add up to be a lot of Diesel when compared to the price of the electronic setup. I would save my money and put it into fuel. Do some timed distance runs to see what your most econimc speed is.
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Old 03-10-2006, 14:01   #20
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Interesting, not one comment on the capacitive unit I mentioned...
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Old 03-10-2006, 14:39   #21
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DeepFrz

The unit you mentioned does the job of an ordinary tank level inidcator plus does a real time computation. It does not do it all by mathematical integration over time. It's not unlike what you see in most cars these days. It still reads a "level" in the tank but adds the ability to have a variable amount of fuel depending on the level. The ability to display real time consumption is an extra feature. I would guess it to be more accurate as a plain old tank level indicator without the moving parts.

On a sail boat I can't see the point. The small engines aboard a sail boat pretty much run at one speed. You can figure consumption pretty easy. I can guess the levels in my tanks more accurate than the mechanical guages by using the hour meter.
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Old 31-10-2006, 20:52   #22
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Fuel Monitoring systems....on a sailboat? WOTAM.
The best fuel monitoring system is the Mark I Mod 0 eyeball a sounding tape/stick with water detecting paste or the old style sight glass (which I believe are illegal now).
I am seeing more and more gadgets being installed on vessels that TRY to keep people out of engine spaces. Cameras........Flowmeters......Microbe-Killers.........extreme long life engine lubricants.........this leads to less visual, olfactory, tactile monitoring of equipment. Makes peopel complacent....that's whem baaaaaaad things happen in "3's" at nite
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Old 01-11-2006, 13:48   #23
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Tank Tender uses a platic tube with a column of air / fluid to tell you the level of the tank in inches. You pump a little bit of air in the tube then the level rises from the bottom of the tube. You then get a level of the tank measured in inches from the bottom.

You'll need a to generate a table of values as not all tanks have a uniform horizontal cross section to compute gallons based on fluid level height. This is pretty low tech since all it does is measure the pressure when the air you pump in vacates all the fluid in the tube, then refills the tube.
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Old 01-11-2006, 21:06   #24
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Sorry to come in late on the discussion but just a note on Navman. Navman was bought out by Brunswick a few years ago. Brunswick then moved the production of that product line offshore which has taken the quality down. Now they are in the process of trying to sell or have sold that line off. Where is Navman going? It may be bought by Simrad who seem to be on a buying spree after buying both B&g and Lowrance but until then I would steer away from Navman. It may be discontinued tomorrow. Floscan may be expensive but they work and have been around forever.
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Old 02-11-2006, 00:24   #25
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Niorn, can you tell me the source of your info please?? As I understand it and I don't "think" it has changed, Navman products are still built here in NZ. Brunswick only have two marine divisions in the US, being MX Marine and Northstar.
The company of Brunswick New technologies incorporates all the marine electronics divisons and as I understand it, it is BNT that is for sale, NOT Navman it's self.
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Old 02-11-2006, 11:05   #26
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Navman

Brunswick bought Navman in 2003 and along with Northstar and MX Marine was placed under the BNT umbrella. They announced in April that this whole group was up for sale. At a recent Brunswick trade show, 2 weeks ago in Las Vegas, the President of the company had been talking to my owners that they had offers on the table to either sell all as one unit or piece meal it out to different companies.
As for the product being made in New Zealand it is and it isn't. Some of the Navman line is no longer made in NZ but offshore. Some of it is made fully in New Zealand and some more only assembled there. Brunswick has been layoffing at its factories and its sales force and also has not been putting much money into the company as a whole.
We have seen quality go down since Brunswick took over and have seen a spike in warranty returns. There still is no answer on who will buy them but as soon as I get a firm answer I will let you know.
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Old 02-11-2006, 19:03   #27
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OK here's the story. I have just got off the phone with a fantasticly helpful Navman person from Auckland head office.
I was pretty well spot on with my first reply. BNT is the company for sale, NOT Navman as such. BNT is a division of Brunswick, that take care of the Marine electronics. Brunswick and BNT are a major Investment company. It is the Investment company that is for sale. Brunswick have little to no hands on involvment in any of the portfolios they own. And in the marine industry, their is little that they don't own. They are like a Shareholder that buy's and sell's shares on the market, hopefully buyin low and selling high and making a profit. BNT are just that, being sold by Brunswick the parent Investment company to make money. They have no hands on involment with Navman at all.
As I also stated, MX Marine and Northstar are also owned by BNT. In fact, this company is so big and deals with such big finacila numbers, that they could easily buy Simrad if they wanted.

ALL Navman products are made in New Zealand. Recently, All MX and Northstar manufacturing was also shifted to NZ. The only product still made outside of NZ is the VHF radios'.
All three product names are all made in the same factory using the same equipment, same expertese and same quality. And I think we all know the reputation of products like Northstar and MX marine. So having Navman made along with those two names speaks volumes.
QC is like second to none and Navman takes great pride in customer service. That was made very clear to me this afternoon by the fantastic help and attitude of the person I talked with.
Thankyou Navman

To qualify my role, I have absolutely no affiliation nor financial or any other benifit with Navman.

Although I would mind a hat or T shirt ;-)
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Old 02-11-2006, 19:27   #28
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NZ's Navman to be sold soon: founder
  • October 18, 2006 - 2:09PM
A sale of the darling of New Zealand's high-tech industry, Navman, is imminent and it can't come soon enough, according to company founder Peter Maire.
"Rumours are it (the sale) is getting closer, which would be a great thing, he told NZPA.
"It needs a new owner to love it because it's losing a lot of people. It's heartbreaking to see that happening."
US marine products giant Brunswick Corp put its Brunswick New Technologies (BNT) unit, including Navman, on the block in April.
Mr Maire believed a private equity firm from Europe was about to snap up the Auckland-based firm he founded in 1988.
Brunswick completed the purchase of Navman, which makes Global Position Systems (GPS) technology, two years ago for $NZ108 million ($A95.05 million).
BNT, mainly comprising Navman, had annual sales last year of $US317 million ($A421.85 million) and Navman reported a profit of $NZ127.2 million ($A111.95 million). Brunswick would expect to get over $NZ500 million ($A440.04 million) for the unit.
Mr Maire said Navman had become a victim of a change at the top which former chief executive George Buckley had been replaced as chairman and chief executive by Dustan McCoy.
Mr Buckley was credited with leading a turnaround at the Lake Forest, Illinois-based Brunswick Corp, that helped more than double the share price.
In December, he moved to try to resuscitate 3M.
Mr McCoy has decided on a back-to-basics approach at the boat and leisure products maker. That included deciding to sell Navman.
"Brunswick had gone from being a company with a technology strategy to one that decided technology wasn't on," Mr Maire said.
"When you don't have an owner, the staff feel unloved.
"It's bitterly disappointing for myself and the management team."
Navman was losing key staff, its culture and momentum.
"It's still a great company. It can recover. It had a huge year last year, achieving $NZ450m in sales," said Mr Maire.
Among those to have departed, apart from Mr Maire who was Navman's former chairman, are former chief executive Stephen Newman and second in charge Jim Doyle.
"They both got sick of the bureaucracy and the lack of forward movement."
A group of vice presidents below those two had exited as well.
"There has been a chain reaction."
He said the Navman experience was instructive for New Zealand.
"A fantastic management team with a good resource can achieve amazing things on the world stage from New Zealand and at the same time, when that team is not backed by the investor base, then people who believe strongly in the business exit quickly.
"The rot sets in quickly and in technology, it sets in very quickly."
Brunswick, a Fortune 500 company that makes Mercury and Mariner outboard boat engines, was seen as having huge spin-off benefits for Navman as it is a major seller of boats around the world and opened up a global sales channel.
However, boat sales have been hit by higher oil prices, profits have been cut an cost cutting was instituted.
Prime Minister Helen Clark last year opened Navman's swish new office in Auckland where most of its 450 staff work.
This month, Navman said it was laying off around 30 of its 600 staff from its Auckland and Christchurch offices.
Brunswick spokesman Dan Kubera reportedly said the cuts were to "streamline" the company. There was no indication of when the cuts would take place.

Canterbury Manufacturers address
Posted on 13 June 2005


We can look at a firm like Navman.
As a manufacturer of advanced navigational equipment, this company has an international focus.
It has the potential to become a significant part of Brunswick Corporation, its US owner.
But not all of Navman's production is based here in New Zealand.
Those activities it locates here are those New Zealand is the best at.

Put yourself on the right path--from the palm of your hand--with the ICN330 from Navman. It employs a SiRF Star 2 Xtrac GPS receiver and SmartST navigation software to deliver even the most complex directions. Powered by a 200MHz Intel PXA255 processor and 32MB SDRAM internal memory, it offers up Tele Atlas maps in a variety of views on the 2.83" diagonal anti-glare, high-resolution color display. Once you arrive, the unit is packed with points of interest from restrooms to restaurants. And, if you should miss an instruction, Back on Track technology returns you to your course in no time.

Measures approximately 4-7/8" x 3-1/8" x 1-5/8".

UL listed. 1-year LMW.

Made in China.

All I am saying is that Brunswick is selling Navman being by shares or whatever as they own the company and we spoke to Dusty in Las Vegas and he verified that they were selling Navman, Northstar and MX. Also there are other items besides there radios being made outside of New Zealand. Items all where components are made outside and then assembled in New Zealand. From a sales stand point we have seen more warranty problems than before. Navman has always been very helpful and effecient in solving them but we still have a customer who is inconvencied.
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