Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-06-2010, 14:34   #16
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,335
Follow Shakey Doug's advice and DON'T change fuel filters or bleed the fuel--the old fuel will work just fine for the few minutes you are going to run the engine on the hard, and you have just done a lot of work and possibly CAUSED an air bubble problem. You are going to have to plumb up a cooling water supply--the cheapest and easiest is a hose wrapped in a rag, but don't start the water until the engine starts.
__________________

__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 15:23   #17
Registered User
 
Jetexas's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Boat: 1982 Oday 34
Posts: 439
Images: 10
Just changing out the oil, oil filter, fuel filters, impeller, etc. on my old Westerbeke to attempt a start after it had been sitting for several years cost me over $200 and after 6 months of work, it still didn't run. I think you'd be far better off just having a mechanic stop by to compression test it. If it checks out with good compression, spend your time and money working on it after you've bought the boat.
__________________

__________________
Jetexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 21:28   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
Prepping the engine for a test run involves - as others have mentioned - changing all the fluids/oils and coolants. Then disconnect the diesel supply hose from the fuel filter and plug it. Install a temporary piece on new fuel hose and put the into a 6 gal jerry can of new diesel. Make sure the fuel filter(s) are changed and new. You are only going to test run the engine so you do not need to deal with the old diesel in the main tank.
- - You have two major problems with the engine itself - dry cylinders due to oil draining off the walls - and - possible piston blockage due to water or foreign materials that entered through the intake system - or - water through the exhaust system.
- - You will need to assure a raw water supply to the engine by a garden hose if "on the hard" or a clean strainer if the boat is in the water. If the boat is in the water, turn off the seacock and remove the strainer lid. Then slowly open the seacock to prove that plenty of sea water will gush out of the strainer. Turn off the seacock and put the lid back on the strainer.
- - If the injectors can be removed (not always possible) that is the best as you can rotate the engine without damaging anything if there is water in the cyclinders. Also you might borrow a borescope and look inside the cylinders to see if they are rusted. Otherwise slow rotation with the starter or with smaller engines a long breaker bar to the flywheel. If the engine refuses to rotate then most probably there is water/rust in the cylinders which makes the engine a total rebuild candidate. The key to success is getting the injectors out. Some engines have a compression release which can be used instead of removing the injectors. Either way, be very careful with the initial rotation of the engine - snapping a crank or piston arm is not good.
- - I have seen diesel engines that have laid for 10+ years unused be started and run successfully - if they are prepped carefully.
__________________
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 23:33   #19
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Every post here reminds me of more things to do.

While you have the injectors out, squirt "some" oil in the cylinders. Enough to get the cylinder walls nice and wet. Rotate the engine by hand a couple of revolutions to distribute it.

Before connecting any fuel supply and probably with the injectors out crank the starter until you get positive oil pressure. This will ensure there is oil in all the bearing passages on initial start up.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 09:40   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hingham Ma
Boat: Ericson 28 - Cool Change
Posts: 15
Thumbs up similar situation

I bought an Ericson 28 last July. Same situation except boat was on the hard for 4 years. I structured an offer that said i would spend no more than $100 for a qualified marine mechanic to look over the motor and see if it ran. anything more than $100 was the owners rewponsibility and I could back out at any time. Engine started right up and ran fine - I changed the oil, both fuel and oil filters and spend several days getting the boat ready for the water (60 mile auto commute from my house). Put her in last July. out to sea heading home - 2 hours into the trip engine stops. There was nice wind and we sailed for 2 days to get her home to Hingham Ma. I changed out the fuel filters again, bled the system and she has run fine since.


Moral of the story is - the old fuel is probably still good but once you hit the ocean, it appears the constant movement stirred up some junk on the bottom of the tank and clogged up the filters.
__________________
Joe & Fran
joe-fran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 12:56   #21
Eternal Member
 
Chief Engineer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: North of Baltimore
Boat: Ericson 27 & 18' Herrmann Catboat
Posts: 3,798
I structured an offer that said i would spend no more than $100 for a qualified marine mechanic to look over the motor and see if it ran.

That is an hour.....not including travel time.....did a mechanic take a look at it?
__________________
Chief Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 12:57   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Coastal VA
Posts: 130
Thanks to all who posted advice and comments. Reading it all helped me to understand how to approach it and what needed to be done.

Short story: Engine started fine and ran sweet, after some electrical system repairs. Bought boat. Took delivery of van-load of sails, dinghy sailing rig and outboard, winch handles, sheets, dock lines and so on, and so on.

Long story: Broke it down into two phases - pre-buy and post-buy. Pre-buy should be done as quickly and cheaply as possible just to hear it run. Post-buy would be getting everything ready to launch boat and do the 130 mile delivery to my home marina.

Wife and I showed up on the appointed day about 0630 to prep engine for starting. 5 hours from home, 2.5 from where we had stayed the night. The owner and his wife were due to show up about 1300, also from a few hours away, for the actual starting, bringing the title, pre-negotiated purchase agreement and the van-full of the related boat gear to finalize the sale.

Broke the tasks down into categories:
- ELECTRICAL: power to battery switch, starter & gauges.
- FUEL: tank full; after advice here, assumed it was OK to run a few minutes w/o any changes as it had been shut off 2 years ago from running fine.
- COOLING: Checked coolant in heat exchanger. Raw water hose connecting raw water strainer to water pump was already off for winterization. Clamped garden hose to water pump inlet nipple. Changed impeller & gasket (impeller had cracks and several vanes broken off, all recovered, new parts owner-supplied).
- LUBRICATION: Check oil level in engine and transmission. Top off trans oil level (owner already stated trans leaks a few oz per long day of use.)
- MECHANICAL: Water pump belt OK. Was going to turn engine at least a little with socket to verify its not locked up, but access to that end very limited by bulkhead and upon consulting with owner re possibility of starter-lock resulting in cable and/or starter meltdown, we decided to just stand by main battery switch as a precaution (OTOH, all that juice in a dead short seems like it would strike a wicked arc in the switch were it turned off under load...).

Batteries (2 Deka 904D) had been left in boat 2 years and were dead (.5VDC). Rather than having to handle 100# battery myself while doing what I call "boat yoga", figured maybe battery would take charge. Owner had said he would bring large 50 amp charger with starting boost feature.

Shortly after arrival, hooked up 30 amp charger I had brought. Charged for a a few hours then "pop" and small smoke... Hmmm, must have been too much for charger but I've never seen that happen. Battery was reading 11.25 volts after it settled in an hour after charger popped.

Terminals were old, deformed with rusted bolts. Moved all wires from 'battery one' terminals to a new pair of battery terminals I brought for that purpose. Found two, 2-gauge wires with loose copper terminal ends. Removed these from wires, cleaned wires with wire wheel in Dremel, used vice-grips to re-round copper terminal holes and re-crimp on wire ends tightly after cleaning.

Owners showed up and we put his charger on battery to see if it would come up enough to crank engine when aided with 60 amp boost feature of charger. Finalized other tasks while charging.

Set battery charger to boost setting. Cranked engine. Barely cranked, and too slow for sure. Old batteries too dead too long, or just not enough time on charger, or both.

Found just enough slack in wires to connect terminals to another cranking battery I had brought, set on top of old batteries. Its about 100 degrees in engine compartment and trying to avoid pulling out old 100# batteries... Battery is group 29 starting type (875 marine cranking amps), not brand new but holds 12.7VDC for many weeks. Hooked it up, then connected charger/booster, and finally connected another group 27 dual purpose battery with jumper cables for a few added amps.

Cranked OK, but he said it usually cranks twice that fast. Seemed like that setup should crank it fast enough if all else was OK, especially with the boost feature on (although 60 amps isnít much of the many hundreds it was probably drawing)...

Tried again a couple times, cranked maybe 15 seconds per go, after waiting for starter to cool each time. Tried again. His big charger/booster unit made a crackling noise and belched large cloud of nasty, grey, electrical 'transformer' smoke into aft cabin. Well, at least we now had verified engine not locked and got a head-start on oil pressure and lube to bearings...

Two larger battery chargers down, one small 10 amp I had brought left on hand. Connected that to bring batteries up at least a little while mulling situation. Batteries were not dead, but not fresh by now either.

Owner still saying engine usually cranks twice that fast.

Looking over electrical items in engine room and noticed red 2-gauge wire to solenoid was blackened for about two inches near very rusty-looking solenoid terminal - very hot to touch. Sure sign of a high-resistance connection.

Had laptop along with WWAN modem so have internet connectivity. Its Sunday afternoon, just after 1700. Located Advance Auto store 20 minutes from marina, open until 2000, who said they have generic solenoid in stock. Remove rusty old solenoid - have to cut one terminal post off with hack saw - no damage to wire end terminal. Owner drives to store, returns with new solenoid and new 1000 CCA starting battery "just in case".

Cleaned copper wire terminals and installed new solenoid. Decided to try with old batteries (been charging a couple hours by now) to see if new solenoid makes difference. Engine cranks noticeably faster, but owner sez its still not up to normal speed.

So, remove my cranking battery(s) and connect new one owner bought.

Completely pooped out by now in 90*+ heat, 12-hour day working on it, and me semi-fasting all day on "clear liquid" apple juice and chicken broth diet for medical procedure early Monday morning, 5 hours from boat. Wives, who have been very supportive bringing tools and helping as they can, are hot (and overheated also, ). and starting to make noises like "well, you gave it a good try".

Last chance. Cranked it. It cranked fast for about 2 seconds and started right up. Quickly checked oil pressure, then turned on water to pump. All good, sounds tight and right. Ran a few minutes.

Bought the boat!! Packed up the tools. Loaded tools and boat gear into van (full up to ceiling). And headed for motel to catch a few hours sleep and arise at 0300 for drive to home, then on to hospital in other car for GI procedure (one of the many the joys of turning fifty! - I spared you the part about the complications of having been instructed by doctor to prep for procedure by take megadoses of laxatives that night just after leaving the marina, on the road, at the end of that long, hot and starving workday - never an 'accident', but lots and lots of stops!).

Learned a lot. Got new starting battery out of the deal, although at 1000 CCA, its maybe not ideally sized for the Westerbeke/Perkins 4-107?

Guess my next questions will be about batteries and electrical, then bottom painting, over in the appropriate sections... Glad to have found this forum!!!
__________________
Whimsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 16:22   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
SkiprJohn's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii
Boat: Cascade, Sloop, 42 - "Casual"
Posts: 14,192
Congratulations!
First on getting the engine started and running and then on the new boat.
Tell us about the boat. We now know all about the engine.
regards,
__________________
John
SkiprJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 18:35   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: St. Martin
Boat: St. Francis 43 Brisa
Posts: 333
I know it sounds whacked....but last week we started an engine that had been siting for 4 years. Just turned it over by hand for about 4 or 5 min...then turned it using the starter with the stop button in so it couldnt start but we got oil pressure through the system and then let the button go and it fired up within a second or two!

We changed the oil and the fuel filters first...ran it from a day tank to make sure the fuel was good...but we didn't bleed it or anything ....I would say as long as your engine isn't seized then it wont hurt to turn it. swap the filters and see if it starts.....The fungus will be easily visible if you drain the filter or take out the filter element and look at it. Your filters will stop everything thats bigger than 5 whatever size micron filter you have... it will easily stop the fungus! If the thing has been sitting for a long time with low or empty tanks you will want to drain all the fuel anyways ...probably some condensation in there and crap all through the system.
__________________
sailingaway221 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2010, 18:36   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: St. Martin
Boat: St. Francis 43 Brisa
Posts: 333
Woops see you already brought it and got it going...Congrats...now the real fun starts!
__________________
sailingaway221 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 19:49   #26
Registered User
 
Stillraining's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin 41 CC Ketch
Posts: 2,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingaway221 View Post
I know it sounds whacked....but last week we started an engine that had been siting for 4 years. Just turned it over by hand for about 4 or 5 min...then turned it using the starter with the stop button in so it couldnt start but we got oil pressure through the system and then let the button go and it fired up within a second or two!

We changed the oil and the fuel filters first...ran it from a day tank to make sure the fuel was good...but we didn't bleed it or anything ....I would say as long as your engine isn't seized then it wont hurt to turn it.

Yep...

Most people make this into a bigger deal full of demons then it needs to be...Even a mild seizure due to internal condensation rust is seldom cause for much concern.
__________________
"Go simple, go large!".

Relationships are everything to me...everything else in life is just a tool to enhance them.
Stillraining is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 21:38   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Coastal VA
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
Congratulations!
First on getting the engine started and running and then on the new boat.
Tell us about the boat. We now know all about the engine.
Thanks!

1972 Morgan Out Island 41' sloop. Owned and used fairly regularly by the same family for 38 years. Never significantly upgraded, but maintained pretty well, mostly - a "virgin" restoration waiting to happen. No tacky "home-made-looking" stuff or mediocre workmanship to "un-restore" - a clean slate.

4000 hours on a total engine rebuild (reportedly done on moderately low-hours engine early on after mechanic dropped small bolt down air intake then just left w/o informing owners).

Rigging looks to be in good shape. Decent, usable sails and other gear.

Bimini and dodger mostly just good for patterns - I have a Sailrite walking-foot machine and make canvas items. Planning to do much more in this department. Cushion covers, curtains, sail cover, and sew on...

Deck needs re-cored a few places and I'm quite familiar with that task, and in fact likely have all epoxy, glass and other materials on hand to do it. Certainly the deck re-coring, painting and non-skid, and deck hardware re-bedding, is the first order of business after getting it to my local marina (5 minutes from our house).

9' Boston Whaler Squall dinghy, hangs on davits aft, and includes sailing rig and British Seagull engine in decent condition.

The price seemed about half of most lower-priced Morgan OI 41 I've seen in usable condition. On one hand, it is a buyer's market these days, on the other it does need some work to be ready and equipped to cruise. And really, I'm no expert on boat prices, or buying boats, but just saw this as "our OK deal". It may turn out to be a great deal - I hope so, and I doubt we'll "lose money" on it.

We were looking at used mid-90s cats in the 42' range, but that was before the economy tanked and a couple of our financial plans fell behind. This boat may do proly 75% of what we wanted a cat to do for us, at about 10% of the initial cost, maybe 18% after upgrades. I see this boat as the "main course". If we can trade up to the cat later, it'll just be like gravy - either way, we likely won't starve for live-aboard nautical cruising adventure.
__________________
Whimsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2010, 12:13   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
SkiprJohn's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii
Boat: Cascade, Sloop, 42 - "Casual"
Posts: 14,192
Again, congratulations! I'm not familiar with the Morgan OI and I don't know your sailing experience but you may not want a cat after sailing this old monohull for awhile.
Good luck on your repairs. By the way you attacked the engine problem you are very thorough.
Kind regards,
__________________
John
SkiprJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-06-2010, 08:08   #29
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Good - Job - Diminishing all that 12 hours of hot hard work into a few paragraphs must have seemed anti-climactic. Good job though!
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
engine

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Starting Winterized Engine for First Time After Three Years Captin_Kirk Engines and Propulsion Systems 10 05-03-2010 22:05
Plan for First Start of Diesel in Five Years TopHat Engines and Propulsion Systems 3 01-03-2010 06:19
2 years planning, 2 years sailing...was it worth it? ABSOLUTLY!!! kingfish General Sailing Forum 14 19-04-2009 17:35
DIESEL ENGINE HELP quartersplash Engines and Propulsion Systems 12 09-02-2009 19:39
Restarting PERKINS 4108 engine after being idle for 4 years! Kevin Price Construction, Maintenance & Refit 24 07-01-2009 19:09



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:12.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.