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Old 21-10-2014, 15:21   #31
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

If you have an engine designed with glo plugs installed why would you not use them? You aren't saving your batteries any if you have to run the starter motor longer and several times to get it to run.
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Old 21-10-2014, 15:45   #32
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Unhappy Re: Diesel dies on startup

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
You have a seriously bad design.

First the injector pump is not designed as a suction/lift pump, it won't work. It will destroy the IP pump.

Your system was originally designed to use a transfer pump and filter to move fuel from the ballast tank into the day tank, then gravity feed to the engine with a separate filter, if it has no lift pump.

This design accomplishes 2 things, it leaves the weight of the fuel bunker low in the keel, and the day tank provides clean fuel to the engine. The pitfalls are that you have to pay careful attention to the amount of fuel in the day tank. The day tank should be fitted with an overflow into the bunker tank, so that it can't be over filled.

My guess is someone lacking proper knowledge rearranged the plumbing.

Lloyd
With respect, you have failed to follow the thread and do not know the engine. Firstly the owner/ user believes that the inline injection pump fitted to this engine is without lift pump, in fact it was originally a vehicle engine and the lift pump is built in,(like many of the Perkins engines with in line pumps). If you had the knowledge with which you are criticising many other contributors, you would know that no injection pump ever made of any type will work without a minimal positive pressure to the fuel chamber, it cannot suck in any way at all. If there is no fuel, or air in the chamber, the pump will not work and therefor cannot damage itself.. Secondly he has described his tank arrangements and although they may not be perfect they work. Several contributors have suggested the changes required to improve the situation quite correctly, which you appear to have picked up on and repeated... I find your post both unprofessional and implying an ignorance among all the other contributors. I believe a retraction of some sort is in order... h the boat. Master Engineer, since 1954. Captain since 1956. All engines from 2 to 5000 hp, including gas turbines.
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Old 21-10-2014, 15:55   #33
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

A quick search in fact your engine does have a fuel lift pump.


It just is mounted in conjunction with the HP Pump.


It also seems that the internet is full of guys with the same problem that you are having. They all seem to go back to air caused by the lift pump. It also seems that Bosch has replacement parts that can fix it.

Lloyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by yttrill View Post
The design may be bad but your guess is wrong, and some of your assumptions are also partly wrong. There is no actual day tank, there is a completely independent small tank at deck level which was installed to run the generator. It is way too small (30 litres) for a day tank.

Secondly there are two reasons NOT to install a lift pump: the first, obviously, is that it is another failure point. The second is that lift pumps are ALSO not designed to suck fuel, they're designed to push it, so they have to be installed at the bottom of the tank, which is not possible if the tank is actually the keel.

Fuel transfer pumps have the same problem: another failure point. The one I have is also not really self priming: it's a gear pump, and it will only lift fuel if manually filled with some fuel first, or is close to the fuel level.

The fact is the injector pump does suck fuel from the keel tank. It may not be good for it but it actually does work.

I don't know who designed the system, the builder certainly made a mess of the tank itself, however the people who marinised the engine are experts and they probably had a say in the design. Everything on a boat is a compromise. It is obviously better to put water in the keel, and fuel higher up (since water is heavier) but fuel generally won't cause the keel to rust away, water will
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Old 21-10-2014, 15:59   #34
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

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Originally Posted by yttrill View Post
Everything on a boat is a compromise...
Just to emphasise: the engine is too small for the boat, 80hp isn't enough for a 50 foot 30 ton boat in blue water conditions.

And the keel tank is only 300 litres, which isn't enough to go anywhere motoring.

The prop was also undersized.

The exhaust pipe came out right in your face in the cockpit (the system is keel cooled so it has a dry exhaust).

It's a compromise, probably motivated by cost: if you're good sailor cruising in blue water the engine is only used anchoring, in close quarters berthing in a harbour, or in an emergency. The saved money is better spent on backup sails, and the wear on the injector pump isn't a concern if you're not planning on using the motor much.

I've fixed several of these issues (replaced the prop, rerouted the exhaust, added an extra 300 litre fuel tank, added a fuel polishing circuit, and allowed the generator tank to feed the main engine as a backup).

I will probably discard or rebuild the keel tank, but right now my problem is simply to get out of the tropics back to my home base 600 miles away solo before cyclone season. I have no money to rebuild the engine, if I did have I'd spend it on sails or a second autopilot.

It's a compromise. The main fuel line in the tank blocked completely so I just threw a fuel hose into the tank. It's not ideal, but it works.

If I were rich .. I'd buy a helicopter instead
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that "everything on your boat has been compromised." Though they're the same compromises we all must make, the builder of your boat might have used the poorest judgement regarding each of those compromises. Or maybe he bubba'd or poor-boy'd everything without sufficient knowledge or skill. This is not exactly unheard of on amateur-built boats. And a proper survey would have shaken most of that out.

If you only go around slapping BandAid solutions on every problem that comes up, because you have used your entire budget to acquire spare gear, as you have indicated, then you're really only making your boat worse, in the long run. And so should reconsider your approach such that you focus on FIRST a seaworthy vessel. Once you have achieved that degree of seaworthiness, which is to say far from your present condition as you have described, then you might take another look at priorities to see if you can once more resume gear acquisition.
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Old 21-10-2014, 16:19   #35
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

You Sir,

Have failed to read and understand my post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

First the injector pump is not designed as a suction/lift pump, it won't work. It will destroy the IP pump.

Your system was originally designed to use a transfer pump and filter to move fuel from the ballast tank into the day tank, then gravity feed to the engine with a separate filter, if it has no lift pump.
It could have no lift pump for many reasons...but it did not come from the factory like that. I have seen many remove/bypass such pump with electric.

But in the case of this engine it needs 28 psi at the injection pump, so not many electric fuel pumps do this.

Now he clearly stated that he had some kind or primer pump, and that after priming it would but not under load. Now being the Master Engineer that you are, you also no the pitfalls of running an injector pump that has ait in it...eventually it will destroy the HP Pump.

I don't need to read the minutia to be a good trouble shooter.

Lloyd




Quote:
Originally Posted by h the boat View Post
With respect, you have failed to follow the thread and do not know the engine. Firstly the owner/ user believes that the inline injection pump fitted to this engine is without lift pump, in fact it was originally a vehicle engine and the lift pump is built in,(like many of the Perkins engines with in line pumps). If you had the knowledge with which you are criticising many other contributors, you would know that no injection pump ever made of any type will work without a minimal positive pressure to the fuel chamber, it cannot suck in any way at all. If there is no fuel, or air in the chamber, the pump will not work and therefor cannot damage itself.. Secondly he has described his tank arrangements and although they may not be perfect they work. Several contributors have suggested the changes required to improve the situation quite correctly, which you appear to have picked up on and repeated... I find your post both unprofessional and implying an ignorance among all the other contributors. I believe a retraction of some sort is in order... h the boat. Master Engineer, since 1954. Captain since 1956. All engines from 2 to 5000 hp, including gas turbines.
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Old 21-10-2014, 16:27   #36
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
A quick search in fact your engine does have a fuel lift pump.


It just is mounted in conjunction with the HP Pump.


It also seems that the internet is full of guys with the same problem that you are having. They all seem to go back to air caused by the lift pump. It also seems that Bosch has replacement parts that can fix it.

Lloyd
Wow, thanks for that diagram and picture!! My engine is a bit different; the injector lines come out the end of the injector pump. The housing of the injector pump is brand new, and made by Zexcel (Japan?). So it seems unlikely there's an air leak at that point.

The docs say the pressure pump is a "feed pump", when you said "lift pump", I assumed you were speaking of a stand alone electric pump.

The standalone fuel pump I do have in the fuel cleaning circuit is designed to be fitted at the bottom of the tank. I was warned by the supplier it would not last if it was used to suck fuel rather than push it. For the fuel cleaning circuit this doesn't matter. This is a diaphragm pump, it's very noisy.

I will note here that the injector pump previously got water in it which damaged it enough I had to get the housing replaced. I think there's a design issue in that pump: there is no bleed plug so there's no way to flush water out of it if you have some bad fuel (except by running it I suppose). Not sure .. love to find there is a bleed plug!

BTW: the little cylinder sticking out in the photo, is that a fuel filter? Because I don't have one of them, in that location there is a plug with a small wire mesh filter inside.
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Old 21-10-2014, 16:28   #37
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

I had a similar issue which was fixed when I got a new battery. Not quite enough speed on start-up.
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Old 21-10-2014, 16:31   #38
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

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Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
If you have an engine designed with glo plugs installed why would you not use them? You aren't saving your batteries any if you have to run the starter motor longer and several times to get it to run.
Habit. It normally doesn't need any glo so I normally just turn the key and it starts. So when it didn't start properly .. I didn't even think about using the glo plugs.
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Old 21-10-2014, 16:53   #39
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

If you replace the secondary filter and then operate the priming pump by hand until you feel some firmness, you will end up with a significant amount of air trapped in the secondary filter. Sure the engine will have enough fuel to idle for a bit and then get you about 2 blocks when ... brrrrrrrrrr .... no fuel. And no amount of cranking is going to purge this much air through the injectors.

Warning: ANYTHING that gets the engine going with first couple of ignitions producing SHARP COMBUSTION knocks is hazardous to pistons because these diesels have a lot of compression (22:1). For this reason, I would not use ether, WD, or other light aromatics to start any SD series diesel. There is no justification for "aerosol starting assistance" after a filter change simply because a filter change does not drain fuel between the injection pump and the injectors. Air removal before the injection pump is what the priming pump and bleed bolts on the injection pump are there for.

So be SURE to purge the air from your newly installed filters using the vent screws shown here:








Quote:
Originally Posted by yttrill View Post
Wow, thanks for that diagram and picture!! My engine is a bit different; the injector lines come out the end of the injector pump. The housing of the injector pump is brand new, and made by Zexcel (Japan?). So it seems unlikely there's an air leak at that point.

The docs say the pressure pump is a "feed pump", when you said "lift pump", I assumed you were speaking of a stand alone electric pump.

The standalone fuel pump I do have in the fuel cleaning circuit is designed to be fitted at the bottom of the tank. I was warned by the supplier it would not last if it was used to suck fuel rather than push it. For the fuel cleaning circuit this doesn't matter. This is a diaphragm pump, it's very noisy.

I will note here that the injector pump previously got water in it which damaged it enough I had to get the housing replaced. I think there's a design issue in that pump: there is no bleed plug so there's no way to flush water out of it if you have some bad fuel (except by running it I suppose). Not sure .. love to find there is a bleed plug!

BTW: the little cylinder sticking out in the photo, is that a fuel filter? Because I don't have one of them, in that location there is a plug with a small wire mesh filter inside.
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Old 21-10-2014, 17:27   #40
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
If you replace the secondary filter and then operate the priming pump by hand until you feel some firmness, you will end up with a significant amount of air trapped in the secondary filter. Sure the engine will have enough fuel to idle for a bit and then get you about 2 blocks when ... brrrrrrrrrr .... no fuel. And no amount of cranking is going to purge this much air through the injectors.
Thanks again for photos!! If I may kindly suggest, it may be useful to use more "conditional" language than being quite so assertive in absence of a complete and accurate picture. That would offend less people (but I'm not easily offended).

I have two fuel filters. The first stage .. the one that gets the fuel first .. is a standard CAV glass bowl thing. The second stage is also a CAV glass bowl thing, and this second filter has the hand priming pump.

Both these filters have an airbleed screw on the top. Now, to bleed air from this system is easy for me, I don't think I need the priming pump. Instead I shut off the main fuel line from the keel tank and open the fuel line from the small "day" tank thing, which is at least 3 feet above the filters. There is then enough pressure to push fuel into the filters and air out.

This will not expel air from the fuel line that runs from the second filter into the injector pump assembly. I can try to do that if necessary by removing the fuel line from the injector pump temporarily, or loosening the line input plug, although it isn't clear that this will force the air out unless there is a significant flow (the air could still rise against the fuel flow).

But I just don't think the problem is air. I have seen the engine run perfectly well with air bubbles visible in the fuel filter, there is no visible air in the filter now, and I have purged the system a couple of times. Most of the fuel lines are new, and I also tightened all the clamps up. And the problem appears to persist even when I'm starting with the "day" tank which provides a small positive pressure through the whole fuel supply system which should eliminate any minor leaks up to the injector pump.

Additionally, once started the engine runs. The problem occurs in the first few seconds after turning off the starter motor, which i guess is long before any air in the fuel filters can travel down the 4 feet or so of line into the injector pump.

Perhaps I should try to figure out how to put some photos on this forum. A pic is worth many words, and saves a lot of ambiguity inherit in written communication (but there is a wind shift coming and I may have to move the boat).
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Old 21-10-2014, 18:18   #41
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
If you only go around slapping BandAid solutions on every problem that comes up, because you have used your entire budget to acquire spare gear, as you have indicated, then you're really only making your boat worse, in the long run. And so should reconsider your approach such that you focus on FIRST a seaworthy vessel. Once you have achieved that degree of seaworthiness, which is to say far from your present condition as you have described, then you might take another look at priorities to see if you can once more resume gear acquisition.
I think this is being too judgemental and isn't accurate. I have indeed focused on seaworthiness, and whilst I'm always learning and definitely no expert I'm no fool either. Blue water cruising requires carrying spares. I have spent considerable funds on the engine, but whilst useful it isn't the primary requirement for seaworthiness.

Watertight integrity is important, steering, rig, ground tackle. I have a brand new rig: mast, spars, all standing rigging, turnbuckles, all halyards. My mainsail is old and this trip is it's last run. My foresail is already gone and I'm using the spare. I have two rudders, one on a skeg, and one on the transom, a wind vane, a trim tab driven electric autopilot and a half built second autopilot based on hydraulics. I have up to date navigation gear including touch screen plotter and Airmar ultrasonic weather station.

The engine is important, but this yacht is primarily a blue water cruising boat. I have a limited budget, so I have to choose carefully whether it is worth replacing a leaky gasket or buying a battery powered hand held VHF radio. A LOT of stuff on this boat depends on electricity. So I have a lot of ways to make it: solar, wind, diesel genset, alternators on both main engine and genset and a petrol generator as well. And 1800 Ah of batteries and two battery monitoring systems.

Right now, I cannot do any major work on the boat: I'm stuck half way home anchored in an area which is subject to cyclones in the near future. My biggest problem isn't the engine at the moment, its the fact I'm solo and I have a 3-4 day trip ahead of me and a flaky autopilot. If the autopilot fails under power I can just stop the boat. If it fails with the mainsail up I'm in deep, because I can't drop the sail unless the boat is head to wind and I can't go head to wind long enough without the autopilot (motor helps too).

If I waited for a perfect boat I'd never go sailing. I am just trying to understand what the issue with the engine is, if I can do something soon and cheaply I will, otherwise I have to leave this weekend: N winds are coming for the next leg and I can't afford to miss them. My next stop is out of the cyclone belt and I have access to much better technical support (mechanics etc) there than when I am now.

I have seen all sorts of problems occur on all sorts of boats. Often its the plastic production boats that have the problems, not just the home built ones. Stuff goes wrong on boats of all kinds all the time. On my trip to PNG half the boats on the rally had serious problems of one kind of the other. In my case the clutch on the anchor winch have up when I had to pull a coral bommie up from 40m with 140m of chain out.
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Old 21-10-2014, 18:37   #42
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

Not trying to be too harsh on you, just trying to help you see that, while you have duplicate and triplicate "stuff", your boat still isn't seaworthy. Yet your only response seems to be justification "all this extra stuff is absolutely essential". We all are guilty of this sometime. And TN is not yet finished.
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Old 21-10-2014, 18:43   #43
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

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Originally Posted by yttrill View Post
Habit. It normally doesn't need any glo so I normally just turn the key and it starts. So when it didn't start properly .. I didn't even think about using the glo plugs.
That's ok. I had a Nissan diesel in a small pickup truck. I used the glo plugs even here in Hawaii. It never failed to start unless the battery was low.

kind regards,
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Old 21-10-2014, 19:26   #44
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

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Not trying to be too harsh on you, just trying to help you see that, while you have duplicate and triplicate "stuff", your boat still isn't seaworthy. Yet your only response seems to be justification "all this extra stuff is absolutely essential". We all are guilty of this sometime. And TN is not yet finished.
I'm not sure I need your help from a distance making overall judgements in situations where I have more detailed knowledge. You seem to think I have a lot of "duplicate stuff" and I'm not sure where you get that idea.

I do have some spare gear: lots of ropes and shackles. Yes, I have two installed VHF radios but only because I added a much more capable one and kept the old one as a backup. Yes, I have two AIS receivers, but only because my new VHF radio had an option to handle AIS and I paid a little extra for that as a backup for the AIS transponder.

Yes, I have a backup chart plotter, a cheap notebook rigged to a cheap monitor in a box I built myself. Yes, I can run both on 12v if the 240v mains inverter fails because I threw in pair of cheap inverters.

Yes, I have some spare gear, and some duplication. But just because the engine isn't starting without glo (and used to) doesn't make the boat non-seaworthy.

Reconditioning the engine is major job. Over here mechanics charge $100 an hour. My whole income for a year would not get the job done. As far as I can tell the engine is good bar a few leaky gaskets, one of which is very hard to replace (I don't think it can be replaced without lifting the engine up).

My last major expense on this boat was .. a hand held sat phone? Essential? No. But I was going across the Coral Sea with 2 backpackers as crew and I doubt they could figure out how to use the HF radio. The satphone works just like an ordinary mobile (cell phone).

Everything is relative. Right now, I can sail without an engine and get into port with the help of the rescue services if it fails. But I will certainly have difficulties without an autopilot. If I'd been rich, I'd have the second autopilot already built but as it is I have had to use a Band Aid: a second hand replacement unit. $500. Compared to $5000 to finish the second one.
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Old 21-10-2014, 20:42   #45
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Re: Diesel dies on startup

Don't misunderstand--I'm not advocating a complete engine overhaul unless that's what it needs. You might have to learn to do some of it yourself. But I do think that a single-handed Roberts 53, with no motor, is unseaworthy. And I do hope you won't rely on emergency services to help you complete your trip.

The picture you painted through your numerous posts left me with the impression of an older, home-built boat, cluttered with aging, failing and redundant gear, which has begun to fall on hard times due to insufficient funds for proper and timely maintenance, and whose systems have been jury rigged or abandoned and replaced, just to keep going. Things were falling apart. So the owner asks for help...and there we were...trying to envision what the problem might be, with a boat we've never seen, based on information that is so often difficult to extract and harder to interpret.

Figured I'd be safe going with the "make it seaworthy" first routine.




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