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Old 05-02-2014, 18:54   #16
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Astrid,
Thanks for your contribution. Since all diesel is going to low sulpher, that is an issue we need to figure out. What is the special baffle you mention? As for fiddling with the fan, there is NO setting that improves it. Every setting will momentarily flare up then it draws the flame down into the pot and if too much, goes out.

Have had no problem with runaway. Can't even get it up to hot, much less runaway. Higher settings do nothing at all unless I bring it up to temp over at least two to three hours and there is no wind. Then it seems wonderful, but it don't last and there is no way to predict if it will even stay lit when I turn it up. Also, no indication of pooling of fuel.

Today, fiddled with making a shield for the Dickinson flue cap, which helped, then shielded the above cabin part of the flue pipe with a piece of 6" pipe over the 5" in hopes of keeping some heat in the flue to help draft. That made it possible to keep it burning and it is burning cleaner, but not regular and still can not get it hot enough to cook a steak for my dog.

I do take care of my dog.
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Old 05-02-2014, 23:39   #17
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Well, folks, I have read, thought about, and researched every post you have made. Spent the entire day (and will tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day....) trying to figure out how to get this stove to work. Totally unsuccessful.

After looking into Charlie Noble, barometric damper, fuel quality, aluminium vs cast iron top, re-reading every part of the two Dickinson manuals I have, finding out how much it will cost to buy all this crap and how long it will take to get here, I came to the conclusion that I will suffer at least two weeks of freezing cold and spend about $500 on another crap shoot with absolutely NO confidence that any of it will solve the problem.

Fabricated a shield out of stainless to prevent wind from blowing down the Dickinson flue cap I have (which is the exact one specified in their manual), added a 6" pipe around the 5" pipe to hold heat in the flue, and spent about five hours forking around with the fan, meter settings, blah, blah, blah, and the stove still will not heat up, goes almost out until it explodes spewing soot into the cabin, and I am still very cold.

One of the guys I talked to is a professional fisherman for 60 years and had experience with many of these. One comment he made is that everyone he knows who had a Pacific model has had lots of problems. (Ridicule him if you want, I would put his skill against any of you any day because I know him, fished with him, and within the next three years, his boat will have fished for 100 years. At 75 he is still fishing.) He gave me quite a few suggestions that I will pursue over the next few cold days. Will let you know how it turns out.

At this point, I stand by my original post. Will NEVER recommend ANY Dickinson product to anybody. For you who have had good luck with these products, I am happy for you, but don't call me incompetent because I have not had your luck.
That is what it is, luck, not skill or knowledge. Sorry!

Buying a Dickinson stove is like buying a typewriter because your computer crashed.
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:14   #18
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

In the United States all states requires the use of low sulpher diesel. I initially went through the same issues you are having and Dickinson not wanting to draw attention to this problem does not include their "Low Sulpher" baffle as part of the heater when we purchase it. They feel it's acceptable to let customers ruin the interiors of their boats with soot and experience weeks of frustration and anger. If you know go to the Dickinson website you will see that they now have a disclaimer about the performance of their stoves if using "LSD", however I will bet they still don't include the piece of S-it $10.00 baffle when you buy the heater/ stove.

I livaboard in a very cold climate, with high winds, often below zero this season and the Newport heater is essential, so let me tell you what works.

Fisherman with large trawlers can usually run long flus, over 4', if you are a sailboat most times you will be restricted to length of flu and this greatly reduces the draw and adds to the potential for backdrafts and sooting. If this is the case, short flu and multiple bends if you want the stove to function running the fan is essential, let me say that again, short flu running the fan to get a good draw from the unit is essential. If you live in the united states there is a good chance you are burning low sulpher diesel, the only way I could get the stove to burn right was after Dickinson sent me the special baffle for free, this is a must. I was told here that the barometric damper was absolutely required and ordered it, expensive and in the end did nothing to correct the issue of LSD and short flu.

In the end I am able to get the unit to work, but still hate the way the company and would never, ever recommend their products. By the way I am still cleaning the inside of by beautiful boat over a year later, what a mess.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:45   #19
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Vino, I'm sorry you are having such problems. I am not finding fault with you. Unless I could put hands on the unit, I can only speculate on the root cause of your problem. I hope you can either find a stove that works well for you or you can engineer this one to operate properly. I hate stove problems.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:53   #20
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Now you know why 98% of boats use that oh so dangerous propane. I'm not sure if you are at the dock, but if you are, consider one of the new quartz heaters and a propane stove for cooking only. I pulled a Dickerson out of my Ingrid 38 and the guys at the local flea market were chomping at the bit for it. I attribute that to the books written in the 60s, raving about them. Of course back then, I believe alcohol was the alternative.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:56   #21
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

The attractive thing about good diesel stoves is that in the winter many folks just leave them on 24/7....would not be a good option with propane.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:13   #22
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Man, my experience with our Dickenson Newport heater is so different! I've actually been reading these posts and wondering if it is another company with the same name. I'm sitting here this morning warmed by our heater and cheered on this rainy day by it's flame. We installed our heater in the Pacific NW and used it often with no problems other than needing an occasional wipe down of the see-through door. I thought we wouldn't need it living aboard in San Francisco, but we start it up every morning and burn it for hours to provide our primary heat and secondarily, dry our clothes. It doesn't backdraft, flare up, or soot up significantly. We use diesel from our boat's fuel tank and it doesn't use much.

Additionally, every call I've made to Dickenson (and one visit I've made to their Vancouver BC site) has been patiently and pleasantly addressed. They taught me (over the phone) how to clean and prime the pump and replace the filter.

I have no financial connection to the company, just a happy customer.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:00   #23
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
The attractive thing about good diesel stoves is that in the winter many folks just leave them on 24/7....would not be a good option with propane.
Yup...that's why I stated for cooking only.
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:08   #24
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Vino,

A couple of things to make your installation operate as you desire.

Flue length is one of the most important, as is the barometric dampener. Every 90 degree fitting is equal to removing 1.5 feet of smoke stack, each 45 will be close to 1 foot less smoke stack.

The heat in the stack is what creates the intake air in the pot for proper combustion. 9-10 feet is the perfect stack for the 5 inch Dickinson's. This is after compounding for 90's and 45's. Now you will never need to run the fan, except for start-up.

This perfect stack length also requires that a barometric dampener be installed. I call this guy the Fireman. As it's just like having a person on watch, adjusting the combustion process 24-7 to create the perfect draft.

Now that we have the Smoke Stack issues solved. Just as important is, the intake air. "A Must", is a 3 inch air intake hose that leads to the bottom of the burner. It should come direct from outside as low as possible and as short as possible, limiting the bends to as close to zero as possible.

This setup will give you a clean burning stove, that will require very little attention to maintain.

This is a picture of the proper SuperHeater. The super heater that came with the allum top stoves is a low three legged devise that sit in the bottom of the pot, and doesn't extend above the Burner.


The Aluminum Top Stoves were discontinued shortly after they came on the market. I believe they were also recalled, by the manufacture. They are just flat out dangerous.

Lloyd








Quote:
Originally Posted by Vino the Dog View Post
The current stove is an older one, but was kept in a dry, clean storage place and had never been installed. All its parts are just like new.

I have two factory installation manuals, one that came with the stove and another 24 page one I got from a local chandler. Both state that the barometric damper should be installed in a stack over 7' length. Mine is 5'-10". According to the manuals, it is within specifications without the damper, but if you think that is one of my problems, I am happy to take your word for it and will install one.

The reason the previous one kept me warm was not because it was properly installed, it was because it would only burn in one heat range, which was so hot it would sear the teak above a much worse installation than what I did. The old flue had two 90 degree bends, was stuffed under the starboard deck, and would only work at all with the fan going all the time. This confirms your comment about wrong installation. That I figured out and ripped out the entire galley to the hull and remodelled it to reposition the stove within the guidelines. Still didn't work right so I got rid of it and got this one to keep from burning the boat down and dying from asphyxiation from leaking diesel smoke that covered the cabin ceiling, turning the entire interior of the boat black with soot. Took over a month to clean it up. Not much else I could do since it was below freezing, the only heat source I had, and I live on the boat.

My fuel is new, flowing through new lines to a new filter just before the stove and was filtered going into a gravity fed day tank through a Racor from the main tank. No condensation, dirt or fuel restrictions, so that is not the problem.

A Charlie Noble, will possibly help. Will install that.

What does the revised super heater look like? Not sure if it is what I have or not. What came with this stove is different from the last one.

I don't like the aluminium top, but am not going to go buy a new cast iron one unless I find one to salvage off another stove. Then may change it along with installing a water heating coil, which I have. I am pretty good at figuring things out and will figure this out too. My bet is that both of you are pretty good at figuring things out also, as most commercial fishermen tend to be. Obviously guys like you with lots of experience can get these stoves working OK, but it is a crap shoot for people with no experience and I still would not recommend one, particularly to the average sailor with limited skills.

I very much appreciate you guys trying to help. Thanks for recognizing frustration and putting up with my rant. Now I can GO BACK to being a dog. Dogs don't rant.
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:40   #25
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Now for the reason your stove won't burn in windy conditions, and the reason for the smoke in the cabin.

This picture says it all.


The only way any kind of a draft stove can burn is clear air around the stack. That means the stack top needs to be 2 feet higher then anything in a ten foot radius.

The location of your Stack and Bimini will never allow your stove to burn properly, especially if there is any wind at all.

With out the Bimini when burning the stove, you will also need to swing the boom to the lee side of the boat.


Lloyd



Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Vino,

A couple of things to make your installation operate as you desire.

Flue length is one of the most important, as is the barometric dampener. Every 90 degree fitting is equal to removing 1.5 feet of smoke stack, each 45 will be close to 1 foot less smoke stack.

The heat in the stack is what creates the intake air in the pot for proper combustion. 9-10 feet is the perfect stack for the 5 inch Dickinson's. This is after compounding for 90's and 45's. Now you will never need to run the fan, except for start-up.

This perfect stack length also requires that a barometric dampener be installed. I call this guy the Fireman. As it's just like having a person on watch, adjusting the combustion process 24-7 to create the perfect draft.

Now that we have the Smoke Stack issues solved. Just as important is, the intake air. "A Must", is a 3 inch air intake hose that leads to the bottom of the burner. It should come direct from outside as low as possible and as short as possible, limiting the bends to as close to zero as possible.

This setup will give you a clean burning stove, that will require very little attention to maintain.

This is a picture of the proper SuperHeater. The super heater that came with the allum top stoves is a low three legged devise that sit in the bottom of the pot, and doesn't extend above the Burner.


The Aluminum Top Stoves were discontinued shortly after they came on the market. I believe they were also recalled, by the manufacture. They are just flat out dangerous.

Lloyd
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:14   #26
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

so...back to my quartz heater...I see you already have a dock cord.
Here's an example...
Amazon.com - Lifesmart Power Plus 6 Element 1500 Square Foot Infrared Quartz Heater w/Furniture Cabinet Includes Remote
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:31   #27
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Lloyd,
Thanks for taking the time to really help.

I have seen that diagram before and understand the theory. Thought that was what you meant by a superheater and my stove has the one you describe that came with the aluminium top model.

There is no way I can get the length of flue you said under the boom. There is also no way to get the 3" air intake hose from outside since the base of the stove sits right at the waterline.

Also understand heat in the pipe necessary for draft. That is why I put a length of 6" pipe around the outside of the 5" pipe - so the cold wind would not cool the pipe and kill the draft. That, in combination with fabricating a stainless shield to go around the Dickinson flue top, with about 1" clearance all around, enabled me to keep the fire going all night without going out, and has stopped the periodic explosions, but still won't get hot enough. I can open the top and stick my arm right inside to clean the soot off the little mica viewing window without even getting slightly burned even when it is burning as high as it will.

Running the fan does not help at all, even during start up except for about 5 minutes. In fact is does exactly what the manual says, draws the fire down into the pot and soots up. I actually take that as a good sign.

The picture you posted of my boat with bimini up is from a year ago. The flue we are talking about is the one on the cabin top. The one by the window was part of a very bad installation of a diesel water heater, which I pulled out months ago. Now, the bimini sides are down, but dodger still up. Still not 2' above, but only way I could do that is with an extension that comes down when sailing, meaning the stove would not work except at the dock. Not a good solution.

My cousin Mel, (the guy I talked to yesterday who has been a commercial fisherman for 60 years), confirms your statements about the barometric damper. His boat also has the length of flue you said. Mel thought from our conversation that I probably have a fuel flow problem and need to pull the metering valve apart for cleaning and rod out the hole in the bottom of the pot. Will try that, but not until it warms up a bit. Even as poorly as this stove is working, it does produce some heat, and it is too cold to shut down any heat I have.

I am coming to the conclusion that these stoves are better suited to fishing boats than sail boats. Unfortunately Dickinson advertises them for sail boats too without any disclaimer or indication of the problems one may have. I think that is false advertising.

Not going to give up, but am going to research what options I have to replace it with something better designed for my boat. I have difficulty imagining how this thing could be reliable under sail.

Do you know what it is about the aluminium top that is dangerous? I don't really see any danger, just does not hold heat well.
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:43   #28
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

Celestial,

I hear you. Already have a 1,000 watt electric heater installed in the head, which is essential right now. Also have another slightly larger one not installed, but new and on board, which will be put in service today. Not quartz, but will help a lot, hopefully enough to shut down the Dickinson to check out if I have a fuel flow problem.

thanks
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Old 06-02-2014, 13:03   #29
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

The stove installation is the determining factor, a proper installed stove will work on a fish boat sail boat, land based, even a motor home.

Anything less will increase the problems.

Intake air is required, I understand your issues, so a work around must be made. Simply run the 3 incs hose as required, and if it has to come from higher then the stove, get a little 12 volt muffin fan with a variable speed control. Now with a little work you will be able to establish the right amount of fresh air need for combustion. As it won't be pushing air into the burner, it will not change the fuel air ratio, just provide the need make up air.

Its very simple to find out if you have a fuel flow problem. Undue the fuel line from the carburetor to the bottom of the pot, then follow these directions
Quote:
Fuel Flow Measurements
If your heater is burning rich (making soot or smoking) or burning lean
(flames not burning above the top burner ring), adjust the valve fuel flow as
follows regardless of what type of fuel:
1) Unscrew the compression nut from the bottom of the valve with 2
wrenches and bend away the copper fuel line. Allow the oil to drip into a
cup or container.
2) Lift and turn the valve knob to the #1 setting. Measure the quantity
of oil dripping slowly from the fuel outlet.
On Setting #1:
 All models 1 teaspoon in 60 seconds (4 c.c.'s per minute)
1.29 IMP Gal per day on low setting
 Atlantic 1 teaspoon in 53 seconds (5 c.c.'s per minute)
1.61 IMP Gal per day on low setting
Beaufort 1 teaspoon in 45 seconds (6 c.c.'s per minute)
1.93 IMP Gal per day on low setting
As to the stack length, I would extend the stack as needed while at the dock. Then when you go sailing, it would be required to be lowered. Also the Clover Leaf style Charlie Nobal is my preferred style, look at the fish boats, that is their preferred style as well.

Everything on a boat is a trade off, but somethings still need to be right. You can't blame the Manufacture of any product, that doesn't operate correctly when not installed as designed.

Here is a link to the current manual it provides all the information you need.

Lloyd


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vino the Dog View Post
Lloyd,
Thanks for taking the time to really help.

I have seen that diagram before and understand the theory. Thought that was what you meant by a superheater and my stove has the one you describe that came with the aluminium top model.

There is no way I can get the length of flue you said under the boom. There is also no way to get the 3" air intake hose from outside since the base of the stove sits right at the waterline.

Also understand heat in the pipe necessary for draft. That is why I put a length of 6" pipe around the outside of the 5" pipe - so the cold wind would not cool the pipe and kill the draft. That, in combination with fabricating a stainless shield to go around the Dickinson flue top, with about 1" clearance all around, enabled me to keep the fire going all night without going out, and has stopped the periodic explosions, but still won't get hot enough. I can open the top and stick my arm right inside to clean the soot off the little mica viewing window without even getting slightly burned even when it is burning as high as it will.

Running the fan does not help at all, even during start up except for about 5 minutes. In fact is does exactly what the manual says, draws the fire down into the pot and soots up. I actually take that as a good sign.

The picture you posted of my boat with bimini up is from a year ago. The flue we are talking about is the one on the cabin top. The one by the window was part of a very bad installation of a diesel water heater, which I pulled out months ago. Now, the bimini sides are down, but dodger still up. Still not 2' above, but only way I could do that is with an extension that comes down when sailing, meaning the stove would not work except at the dock. Not a good solution.

My cousin Mel, (the guy I talked to yesterday who has been a commercial fisherman for 60 years), confirms your statements about the barometric damper. His boat also has the length of flue you said. Mel thought from our conversation that I probably have a fuel flow problem and need to pull the metering valve apart for cleaning and rod out the hole in the bottom of the pot. Will try that, but not until it warms up a bit. Even as poorly as this stove is working, it does produce some heat, and it is too cold to shut down any heat I have.

I am coming to the conclusion that these stoves are better suited to fishing boats than sail boats. Unfortunately Dickinson advertises them for sail boats too without any disclaimer or indication of the problems one may have. I think that is false advertising.

Not going to give up, but am going to research what options I have to replace it with something better designed for my boat. I have difficulty imagining how this thing could be reliable under sail.

Do you know what it is about the aluminium top that is dangerous? I don't really see any danger, just does not hold heat well.
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Old 06-02-2014, 19:54   #30
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Re: Dickenson Cook Stoves

FWIW, I have my Adriatic in a hunting cabin, it works OK. But I have some issues I'm still sorting out, to as bad as Vinos.

On each boat I have an Espar D-4 air heater. I am not tempted to make any changes. The Espars are great Heaters.

I don't use propane at all. Both boats have Taylor kero cookers.

Good combination for me.
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