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Old 11-05-2015, 08:53   #16
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

>>But if you run it off your solar and not alternator that makes it free to make
}}I urge you to do the math

Especially the part about how many watts it will take to produce how much hydrogen, and then how many more it will take to compress that into a form that can be stored usefully. Or, pumped into the gasbags on your zeppelin. (G)

Of course a true Zen Master can simply fill a bucket with seawater, and instruct the hydrogen molecules to step this way, into the storage tank.
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:55   #17
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

Hydrogen is a fuel, it burns very well, in fact it burns the exact amount of oxygen also released when you make the hydrogen in the first place. It's a reversible cycle. With electrolysis you put just as much energy in as you get out when you burn it, neglecting losses that actually make less out than in. If you power it with solar or some other renewable energy it does allow you to store energy for a later time, but storing any amount of hydrogen is not easy. I did some water injection research when I was a student, it turns out water injection does help combustion, mostly by cleaning the combustion chamber and maybe acting a little like a steam engine, smoothing the pressure pulse, but I found out when you turn the water off, the power goes up even more than it did when you added the water injection. That's just for a little while until the combustion chamber dirties up again. With water injection you have to advance the spark timing on the engine because of the slower burning.

There is an engine that burns fuel from yard waste, in fact they have made a self propelled, and autonomous lawnmower that slowly mows the lawn continuously on "wood" gas from the clippings it has just cut.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:23   #18
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
>>But if you run it off your solar and not alternator that makes it free to make
}}I urge you to do the math

Especially the part about how many watts it will take to produce how much hydrogen, and then how many more it will take to compress that into a form that can be stored usefully. Or, pumped into the gasbags on your zeppelin. (G)

Of course a true Zen Master can simply fill a bucket with seawater, and instruct the hydrogen molecules to step this way, into the storage tank.
Not stored but directly injected
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:27   #19
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
Doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Where do you get hydrogen from?
The same place as all the hydrogen cars? I thought about methane power, eat beans.
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Old 11-05-2015, 12:28   #20
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

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The same place as all the hydrogen cars? I thought about methane power, eat beans.
Yeah buts guests look at you real funny when you try to hookup the hose.
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Old 11-05-2015, 12:32   #21
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

No.
First law of thermodynamics.
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Old 11-05-2015, 13:22   #22
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

Methane is a reality and ppl cook with it everyday produced from their own biomass reactor Google it. Very common in India but not really practicle for a boat
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Old 11-05-2015, 13:30   #23
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

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Yeah buts guests look at you real funny when you try to hookup the hose.
I was thinking more a bladder around my ass, but I see your point.
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Old 11-05-2015, 14:47   #24
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
Not stored but directly injected
If you are going to burn it immediately, you might as well just use solar to electric motor drive, then you don't have the 30% or less efficiency of the engine. It's just not practical.
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Old 11-05-2015, 15:57   #25
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

Follow up post...
"excess dc amps" refers to the amps available above the amps necessary for powering lights, etc., and charging. I'm not an engineer or a scientist but the son of one. I was born in an age when we learned how things work and how to repair them.
You don't use tap water, but water with an additive that promotes better electrical flow. I use potassium hydroxide, but other salts work, too. I use a 12 volt flow of 20 - 30 amps and liquid capacity of several gallons.
Originally I bought a "car sized" unit from a company in Canada (pre-internet). It worked but only held about a quart of liquid that got expended too fast. From then on I made my own with replaceable steel rods for the cathode/anodes and large plastic pipes as a tank.
Yes, the alternator takes more hp from the engine producing those 20-30 amps, but on a Detroit 671 or gas v8, it's not noticeable. On my current 671's, non-turbo, each running it's own hydrogen/oxygen generator, I actually went from 10 gallons/hr. to 8 at the same speed/rpm. I've been running 671's since 1962 and probably get a better tune. The numbers in my last post were average or less, not the most mpg achieved. On a Detroit (at cruising speed) with exposed governor linkage, you can mark the linkage, turn on the electrolysis power, and see the linkage move and turn down the injectors within a few seconds. If you've ever seen a cutting torch lit, and the addition of oxygen you have some idea of the burn enhancement.
It takes some work, maybe a bigger alternator, and about $50 to build a unit like I use now. You have to figure your mix and maintain liquid levels. The electrodes are gradually wasted and have to be replaced.
I have done a lot of experimenting over the years with different metals, mixes and amps. It's fairly easy to get 20% better mileage. Above that means a bigger alternator and an advanced belt system. I don't think 50% is possible.
I don't sell units or plans and have no interest in doing so.
If someone handy really wants to try this, send me a message and I'll draw a basic system and instructions.
Lepke
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Old 11-05-2015, 17:39   #26
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
Follow up post...
"excess dc amps" refers to the amps available above the amps necessary for powering lights, etc., and charging. I'm not an engineer or a scientist but the son of one. I was born in an age when we learned how things work and how to repair them.
You don't use tap water, but water with an additive that promotes better electrical flow. I use potassium hydroxide, but other salts work, too. I use a 12 volt flow of 20 - 30 amps and liquid capacity of several gallons.
Originally I bought a "car sized" unit from a company in Canada (pre-internet). It worked but only held about a quart of liquid that got expended too fast. From then on I made my own with replaceable steel rods for the cathode/anodes and large plastic pipes as a tank.
Yes, the alternator takes more hp from the engine producing those 20-30 amps, but on a Detroit 671 or gas v8, it's not noticeable. On my current 671's, non-turbo, each running it's own hydrogen/oxygen generator, I actually went from 10 gallons/hr. to 8 at the same speed/rpm. I've been running 671's since 1962 and probably get a better tune. The numbers in my last post were average or less, not the most mpg achieved. On a Detroit (at cruising speed) with exposed governor linkage, you can mark the linkage, turn on the electrolysis power, and see the linkage move and turn down the injectors within a few seconds. If you've ever seen a cutting torch lit, and the addition of oxygen you have some idea of the burn enhancement.
It takes some work, maybe a bigger alternator, and about $50 to build a unit like I use now. You have to figure your mix and maintain liquid levels. The electrodes are gradually wasted and have to be replaced.
I have done a lot of experimenting over the years with different metals, mixes and amps. It's fairly easy to get 20% better mileage. Above that means a bigger alternator and an advanced belt system. I don't think 50% is possible.
I don't sell units or plans and have no interest in doing so.
If someone handy really wants to try this, send me a message and I'll draw a basic system and instructions.
Lepke
I am also a son of an engineer (chemical) and also grew up learning how things worked, tearing apart everything is sight, building things from scratch, helping my dad fix everything from violins and accordions to bulldozers and cement mixers, we had gas and electric welders, lathes and every tool known to man. In addition to all that I am an mechanical engineer and physicist, have taught both in a university for 3 decades, and also studied and did research with internal combustion engines. My comment is it "ain't gonna work", plain and simple it defies laws of physics.
You aren't going to get more out then you put in.

The only possibility is you are increasing the efficiency of the combustion process, but I very much doubt that it can overcome the 70% loss in energy due the the thermal efficiency of an internal combustion engine when you try to make power to run the hydrogen generator.

For example If you are replacing 10% of the diesel fuel with the the hydrogen, lets say you at first burn 100kw of diesel to produce 30Kw of work (that's the engine thermal efficiency thing). Now you want to add 10Kw to run your hydrogen generator, so you get your 10Kw of hydrogen, so now you are up to 40Kw output to still have the 30Kw of work you originally had. To do that you have to burn 33% more fuel to make the extra 10Kw. Now you can cut back the diesel and add the hydrogen, it's only about 8% of the total now, 10kw + 123Kw diesel. You would have to make diesel engine 47% more efficient from 30 to 44% thermal efficiency to be able to cut the diesel back down to 90Kw and produce the power to run the hydrogen generator and your 30Kw or work. I'm assuming the hydrogen generator is 100% effiecient here. It's just ain't gonna happen. If you could do that you will be more famous than Edison or Ford.
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Old 11-05-2015, 18:44   #27
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

I am not saying these generators work ok or not but I have seen instances especially in drag racing and salt-flats racing where the scientist and so-called experts were proven wrong time and time again. In drag racing physics experts were constantly putting limits on how quick a dragster could get down the track, only to be proven wrong in a matter of time. You see the hot-rodders were not operating in the same paradigm, they just put on another carburetor or what-ever.
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Old 11-05-2015, 18:57   #28
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

One experiment that will clearly demonstrate that an alternator or generator only converts kinetic energy to electrical energy (with some loss in the conversion) and the more electrical energy produced (or required) requires more kinetic energy (force times movement) is to take an old crank phone, one that you wind a crank to cause a bell to ring, and short it out with a screw driver or heavy steel rod. You won't be able to turn the crank because it will be trying to produce more energy than you are physically capable of.
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Old 11-05-2015, 18:57   #29
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

Tried it on a boat, no increase in rpm when on or off, so assumed it did not add power. If it had, then could have throttled back to save fuel on an ocean crossing. Disconnected. Leaked its caustic on the engine, peeling paint and making a mess. Don't waste your time.

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Old 11-05-2015, 19:48   #30
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Re: Considering a Hydrogen Generator as fuel Suppliment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
Follow up post...
"excess dc amps" refers to the amps available above the amps necessary for powering lights, etc., and charging. I'm not an engineer or a scientist but the son of one. I was born in an age when we learned how things work and how to repair them.
You don't use tap water, but water with an additive that promotes better electrical flow. I use potassium hydroxide, but other salts work, too. I use a 12 volt flow of 20 - 30 amps and liquid capacity of several gallons.
Originally I bought a "car sized" unit from a company in Canada (pre-internet). It worked but only held about a quart of liquid that got expended too fast. From then on I made my own with replaceable steel rods for the cathode/anodes and large plastic pipes as a tank.
Yes, the alternator takes more hp from the engine producing those 20-30 amps, but on a Detroit 671 or gas v8, it's not noticeable. On my current 671's, non-turbo, each running it's own hydrogen/oxygen generator, I actually went from 10 gallons/hr. to 8 at the same speed/rpm. I've been running 671's since 1962 and probably get a better tune. The numbers in my last post were average or less, not the most mpg achieved. On a Detroit (at cruising speed) with exposed governor linkage, you can mark the linkage, turn on the electrolysis power, and see the linkage move and turn down the injectors within a few seconds. If you've ever seen a cutting torch lit, and the addition of oxygen you have some idea of the burn enhancement.
It takes some work, maybe a bigger alternator, and about $50 to build a unit like I use now. You have to figure your mix and maintain liquid levels. The electrodes are gradually wasted and have to be replaced.
I have done a lot of experimenting over the years with different metals, mixes and amps. It's fairly easy to get 20% better mileage. Above that means a bigger alternator and an advanced belt system. I don't think 50% is possible.
I don't sell units or plans and have no interest in doing so.
If someone handy really wants to try this, send me a message and I'll draw a basic system and instructions.
Lepke
So why aren't all the auto companies putting these on thier cars?

Sorry but the physics just doesn't work (also an engineer).
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