Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-10-2016, 19:18   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 77
Common Rail Diesels Revisited

I've read that article. I don't really agree with it
My injectors are much quieter with the 2 stroke. that said, I usually run a quality fuel treatment instead as my vehicle will sit for weeks at a time
__________________

__________________
packeteer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2016, 19:36   #17
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Boat: 41' yawl
Posts: 504
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Compass790 View Post
Interesting post thanks. Only question I would have is how could water or grit be less damaging in a common rail fuel injection system that runs at maybe 30,000psi & has smaller openings in injector than a mechanical system that runs at 2500 psi approx ?
Maybe ask your tech about that
Not sure he implied exactly that, but it's a good point. Anyways, I took his major point to be the field serviceability in the event of a problem.

Even if the common rail injectors are 5x more likely to fail, I dunno, I might *still* prefer them. I've been tinkering with engines my whole life, but the injection pump on my diesel is an absolute mystery to me. I think I'd really like a setup that lets me just carry spares.
__________________

__________________
chris95040 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2016, 19:44   #18
Registered User
 
leftbrainstuff's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco and Australia
Boat: Liberty 458
Posts: 1,785
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
One of the things causing damage to mechanical fuel injected engines is dirty fuel. I see so many people espousing that 30 micron filters are enough when most of the damage done to high-pressure pumps is caused by particles less than 7 micron. I have heard statements like "don't use 2 um filters as they get dirty too fast". The real solution is to clean your fuel system and keep it clean and use a properly installed fuel polishing system. That's just MHO.
+1

If your 2 micron final filters get clogged quickly then fix the cause. A dirty tank or dirty fuel.

We run three stage filtration on our Liberty 458. 30 micron primary Racors, a 10 micron secondary Racor P Series and 2 micron tertiary filters.

Common rail and old style mechanical injection both have pros and cons. Neither cope well with dirty fuel or water ingestion.

Our Perkins 4-236 suits us fine. We carry a spare injector and a spare cav mechanical pump. Ideally I'd like 4 spare injectors.

I can do without the turbo. Extra complexity taking up valuable engine room space.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
leftbrainstuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2016, 20:24   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 77
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

3 stage filtration is a good idea. in my car I run 2 stage. factory 10 micron and stanadyne 2 micron.
__________________
packeteer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2016, 20:41   #20
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Anything entertaining.
Posts: 3,484
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

I would think that if you're using it much, the turbo charger is going to put more heat into the engine room, not less. Non?
As in cars at least, turbocharged engines have typically had more issues created by higher heat loadings. Though obviously most such engines aren't diesels.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2016, 20:45   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Auckland, NZ
Boat: Compass 790 , 7.9 metres or 26 ft
Posts: 184
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
Not sure he implied exactly that, but it's a good point. Anyways, I took his major point to be the field serviceability in the event of a problem.

Even if the common rail injectors are 5x more likely to fail, I dunno, I might *still* prefer them. I've been tinkering with engines my whole life, but the injection pump on my diesel is an absolute mystery to me. I think I'd really like a setup that lets me just carry spares.
Yes I thought later that it was just the wording. I have rebuilt my mechanical injection pump but its only for a single cylinder. Have to say it wasnt rocket science. Process was all there in the workshop manual for a Yanmar YSM8. I do have a fair bit of mechanical fitting experience but the guy who pop-tested my injector encouraged me to have a go.Wouldn't recommend trying it if you have no mechanical experience but if you have stripped & rebuilt a motor successfully I'd say it should be achievable.
__________________
Compass790 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2016, 21:04   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 77
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
I would think that if you're using it much, the turbo charger is going to put more heat into the engine room, not less. Non?
As in cars at least, turbocharged engines have typically had more issues created by higher heat loadings. Though obviously most such engines aren't diesels.
cars usually have intercoolers too.

fwiw, I run an EGT gauge on my exhaust (post turbo). with the factory intercooler, 800 degrees C is not unusual.
__________________
packeteer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 04:47   #23
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,923
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
I would think that if you're using it much, the turbo charger is going to put more heat into the engine room, not less. Non?
As in cars at least, turbocharged engines have typically had more issues created by higher heat loadings. Though obviously most such engines aren't diesels.
Yes, I suppose it does, but the Yanmar turbos (and probably all marine turbos) are water cooled, so not that hot on the outside. A turbo requires a bit more length of dry exhaust, so that probably puts more heat in the engine room.

This is not a problem if you have decent ventilation. My engine room stays reliably within 10C of ambient temperature. I monitor the temperature.

Turbos and diesels go together like cookies and cream. I have really learned to love them after 2000 hours and 7 years of experience with this one. Note that you can't even buy a diesel car without a turbocharger any more.

It's a dead simple device with only one moving part. For you, Uncivilized, the overwhelming argument for a turbo engine in a sailboat will be that it allows you to use an engine which might be half the weight, of a non-turbo engine with the same power. This has a big effect on sailing performance. My turbo Yanmar is light enough compared to the non-turbo option on my boat, that it actually more than makes up for the weight of the heavy duty generator.

That lighter engine with half the displacement (the non-turbo option was the 4 liter Perkins 83hp) is much happier running at low power output settings, as the cylinders need half the fuel to reach a reasonable operating temperature. And at all power settings from 1500 RPM to 3800 RPM it is sweet and smooth and quiet, a very different sound and feel from the rumbling and bellowing and shaking and thrashing of a big non-turbo 4-cylinder diesel. I've often been asked whether my Yanmar is a 6 cylinder, it's so smooth. That's because the turbo absorbs the exhaust impulses, and evens out the pressure. Of course, the lead-lined engine room also helps in this

So on turbos I'm definitely sold; I'll never have another boat without one.


Concerning common rail injection, I just don't have enough information yet, which is why I started this thread. Thanks to all for all the good information posted so far.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 06:16   #24
Mooderator
 
capngeo's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Key West & Sarasota
Boat: Cal 28 "Happy Days"
Posts: 4,117
Images: 12
Send a message via Yahoo to capngeo Send a message via Skype™ to capngeo
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

Not in my boat, but I just bought a Cummins 6.7 in a Ram 5500 truck.... Turbo, Common Rail, EGR, and exhaust after treatment. I was nervous buying a new truck with all the "stuff" hanging off the engine. I did a lot of research. I looked hard at Ford; GM didn't have an offer in a class 5 truck, International was on slippery ground financially after their failed Maxxforce engine project. Ford has had a lot of problems with fuel contamination, and was in a V-8 configuration.

Cummins got the nod, and I ordered the rest of the truck built to my spec. All in all, after 3 months and 10k of HARD miles the truck has performed flawlessly. Too bad Cummins doesn't marinize the 6.7! Cummins is big in the commercial marine diesel market (if you can use a 1000hp+ engine)
__________________
Any fool with a big enough checkbook can BUY a boat; it takes a SPECIAL type of fool to build his own! -Capngeo
capngeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 07:20   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 68
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

I've got a one year old L48 with Yanmar 4JH57 common rail engines. Initially we had some problems with the engines due to a bad fuel line system installation at the factory that took a long time to resolve (small air leak in the fuel circuit) and then a gummed up heat exchanger due to delivery crew (or factory) putting in the wrong type of coolant. Neither was a problem related to the engine and once we finally diagnosed and fixed each issue, the engines have worked well with no issues what so ever.

There is more instrumentation that comes as standard with the new Yanmars so its easier to monitor how everything is doing. If you are like me and your engine maintenance is limited to oil and coolant changes, checking /replacing the impeller and alternator belt etc, then the experience with these common rail engines is pretty much identical to what I did with my previous boat which had the Yanmar 4JH5E engines. If there were problems with the injectors, I'd be lost with either model of engine.

The engines run at lower RPMs. Max RPM is about 2500 whereas on the 4JH5E it was a little over 3000. Engine are supposedly quieter and more fuel efficient but its hard for me to guage either statement. But after a year I can say that they seem to do exactly what is expected - reliable motoring when needed.
__________________
HKTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 07:29   #26
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,923
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by HKTim View Post
I've got a one year old L48 with Yanmar 4JH57 common rail engines. Initially we had some problems with the engines due to a bad fuel line system installation at the factory that took a long time to resolve (small air leak in the fuel circuit) and then a gummed up heat exchanger due to delivery crew (or factory) putting in the wrong type of coolant. Neither was a problem related to the engine and once we finally diagnosed and fixed each issue, the engines have worked well with no issues what so ever.

There is more instrumentation that comes as standard with the new Yanmars so its easier to monitor how everything is doing. If you are like me and your engine maintenance is limited to oil and coolant changes, checking /replacing the impeller and alternator belt etc, then the experience with these common rail engines is pretty much identical to what I did with my previous boat which had the Yanmar 4JH5E engines. If there were problems with the injectors, I'd be lost with either model of engine.

The engines run at lower RPMs. Max RPM is about 2500 whereas on the 4JH5E it was a little over 3000. Engine are supposedly quieter and more fuel efficient but its hard for me to guage either statement. But after a year I can say that they seem to do exactly what is expected - reliable motoring when needed.
Thanks -- that's a data point.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 07:35   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 68
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

I should add that my engines were given a credible breaking in test which was a 70 day delivery from capetown to Hong Kong. Each engine had a little over 300 hours on the clock when the boat was handed over to me. In the past year I've put about 100 more hours on each engine.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
HKTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 10:45   #28
Registered User
 
01kiwijohn's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tacoma, Washington, USA
Boat: Casacde 36
Posts: 202
Images: 1
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

I'm without. I have about 40 years of experience with diesels in all kind of applications, dirt and other contaminated cause almost all failures. On my boat I have 2 oversized 2 micron filters and can switch ' on the fly.' even so, at each annual inspection I see a small amount of sediment in the secondary filter bowl.
Common rail should be a good improvement overall.
__________________
01kiwijohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 12:35   #29
Registered User
 
buzzstar's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 501
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

Any thoughts bout spares and the ability to use them?
__________________
Brian, sometimes called "Old California"
Free advice may be worth even less than what you pay for it, or it may contain real gold.
buzzstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2016, 12:38   #30
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 12,745
Re: Common Rail Diesels Revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzstar View Post
Any thoughts bout spares and the ability to use them?

First thing your going to need is diagnostic software as I assume these won't have OBDII connectors, but they will have something, so will Yanmar sell you the software and connector?
__________________

__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diesel

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Common Rail Direct-Injection Diesel Engines inamk Engines and Propulsion Systems 29 22-07-2011 18:31
110vac to 220vac Conversion Revisited Curmudgeon Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 34 28-02-2011 07:28
Challenge 21 and 30k USD Revisited with a twist StayRsailaway Challenges 20 27-01-2009 14:33
Shawn Arber 38 revisited Factor Multihull Sailboats 3 13-07-2008 16:10
"Yachtie" Revisited...... cantxsailor Off Topic Forum 13 05-04-2008 08:18


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:55.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.