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Old 15-04-2013, 18:54   #196
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Say what? I have never heard that one and I grew up in the segregated, pre-civil rights south. I thought I had heard every rude, bigoted term ever used.

My mother even used to wake me up every morning saying good morning sunshine.

I have heard a similar word used in a derogatory manner but never sunshine. I'm wondering if those 3 big ole fellows were misdirected.
They said that the slave masters would call them that because when there were things they didnt want to do they would make Sunshine do it..;As in: Making the sunshine upon being faced with an undesirable task,just get sunshine to do it and it will be a bright and sunny day..That was the jist of what those fellows told me and I thought I new what was offensive and what wasnt when this happened,embarresed me some..
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Old 15-04-2013, 18:54   #197
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

Hello Downunder! Some folks like to sugar-coat low quality, for the sake of the argument. You don't have to be a professional engineer to know what junk is. As Bob & Connie noted a few times, quality stands out. Anything else, will fall by the way side. I look at manufacturing specs from an engineering perspective. When it comes to marine Diesel engines, a handful of companies make the cut; Chinese made engines do not make the cut. Like it or not, as an engineer, that is my professional opinion. Mauritz
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Old 15-04-2013, 18:54   #198
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

The yuloh is a great Chinese engine that powers my boat just fine!





.
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Old 15-04-2013, 18:56   #199
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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I wouldn't consider an Australian or only other motor without a reputation. No matter what the price. Why put "Chinese" in the statement?

BMW uses Chinese built motors. Are those crap?

Agreed.

I said Chinese brand not Chinese built. There is a consensus that the Chinese can and do build good products and I agree. I think there are some Catapillar motors other than BMW also built in China. I own some excellent Chinese built Apple products.

We are discussing the merits of Chinese built marine motors in this thread. Can you recommend a brand of marine motor. I can't at present.

We don't build any marine motors of note in Australia that I an aware of.
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Old 15-04-2013, 18:59   #200
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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From USA Today:



You do know how many zeroes go into a trillion I suppose And that is just the debt they hold. Next up is the real estate and companies they own in the US. 23 billion dollars now. Check here: Rhodium Group

This too is subject to change...Looks like its time for some New Accounting... I think Japan and China are about a breath away from "It' ...Then what?
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Old 15-04-2013, 18:59   #201
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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From USA Today:

Quote:
China, top foreign owner of U.S. Treasury debt, increased its holdings 0.7% to $1.22 trillion. Japan, second-larger holder, trimmed its holdings 0.6% to $1.1 trillion.
You do know how many zeroes go into a trillion I suppose And that is just the debt they hold. Next up is the real estate and companies they own in the US. 23 billion dollars now. Check here: Rhodium Group

This is totally off topic, but before we all panic, even with this increase to $1.22 trillion, China still holds less than 10% of the U.S. Treasury debt. In fact, most of the U.S. Government debt is still owned domestically.
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Old 15-04-2013, 19:07   #202
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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This is totally off topic, but before we all panic, even with this increase to $1.22 trillion, China still holds less than 10% of the U.S. Treasury debt. In fact, most of the U.S. Government debt is still owned domestically.
Somethings are flexable others are not...
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Old 15-04-2013, 20:47   #203
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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Originally Posted by Teknav View Post
Chinese made engines do not make the cut. Like it or not, as an engineer, that is my professional opinion. Mauritz
You mean like Cummins, BMW, Nissan and many many others. And yes, Dongfen.
All Chinese made.
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Old 15-04-2013, 21:07   #204
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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You mean like Cummins, BMW, Nissan and many many others. And yes, Dongfen.
All Chinese made.
Yes, in factories built by and supervised by Cummins, BMW, Nissan and many many others. Dongfeng builds Kias, Hondas and others under contract to their QC standards, so they are quite competent and will likely be a factor in U.S. markets at some point. TDME? Not so much.
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Old 15-04-2013, 21:10   #205
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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Yes, in factories built by and supervised by Cummins, BMW, Nissan and many many others. Dongfeng builds Kias, Hondas and others under contract to their QC standards, so they are quite competent and will likely be a factor in U.S. markets at some point. TDME? Not so much.
Wait, wait... you are saying these are NOT Chinese built? Or that it doesn't count as Chinese built? So, all the US built products by factories in the US that are owned and managed by foreign corporations or persons are also not US made products anymore? Chrysler cars built in the US are Italian?
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Old 15-04-2013, 21:26   #206
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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Wait, wait... you are saying these are NOT Chinese built? Or that it doesn't count as Chinese built? So, all the US built products by factories in the US that are owned and managed by foreign corporations or persons are also not US made products anymore? Chrysler cars built in the US are Italian?
My comment means exactly what I said it meant about 40 posts ago. To repeat myself, you can get whatever quality you want from China that you are willing to supervise to acquire. I believe the example I used was high end clothing made of cloth woven in Italy, designed in New York and sewn in China. Apparently BMW et al agree since that is precisely what they do.

However, if you want to buy products from China that do not have first world Q.C. provided by someone who cares, you'll get the kind of rubbish reported by many others on this thread.

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Old 15-04-2013, 21:53   #207
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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My comment means exactly what I said it meant about 40 posts ago. To repeat myself, you can get whatever quality you want from China that you are willing to supervise to acquire. I believe the example I used was high end clothing made of cloth woven in Italy, designed in New York and sewn in China. Apparently BMW et al agree since that is precisely what they do.

However, if you want to buy products from China that do not have first world Q.C. provided by someone who cares, you'll get the kind of rubbish reported by many others on this thread.

No sir, it is not about QC from the west or east.

When people only want it cheap, you get low quality. The whole idea that new stuff is both cheap and good is... well just wrong.

Most Chinese engineers and managers are fully educated in the west. They can do that job just as well as the western engineers and managers. They also understand quality control: cr@p coming off a production line is all the same level of cr@p.

They make what the market wants them to make. The market wants cheap cr@p, they oblige and take the money. My brother was TV director: he made cr@ppy TV programs for stupid people. He did that because most people are stupid and they got better ratings when they tuned the content for that level. They made a study and art of creating cr@p for the masses It was actually invented in the US with a series called Soap. See, the US also creates cr@ppy products when the demand is there. This is from wiki.answers.com:
Quote:
Americans are known for buying cheap, building cheap, saving money. Americans don't demand quality as much as they demand their products to be affordable.
The problem now is that even cr@p costs much to produce in the US. That is why we lose and they win.

Some people still want quality stuff, so they make that too. They are not bothered by self importance so much as we are and do not care if it is sold under a western brand name if that means they earn more money that way.
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Old 16-04-2013, 00:35   #208
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

Just bought two Chinese diesels off eBay here in Australia a month ago for $812 total. The seller advertised them as "at least 20hp" and also as "engine plus gearbox and spares", the spares being a whole complete second engine. He had already wired and run the one with a gearbox but not installed either of them into a boat.

Now I have two Hartley ferros (OK, I know that makes me crazy in the eyes of some of you already) which both need engines. The Tasman has none fitted at all, the Queenslander has a Perkins 4.108 with a hole in the block where it threw a rod many years ago. So to me, these things were a godsend since I won't be overcapitalizing the yachts by fitting expensive iron mainsails in there.

After winning the auction I asked the owner for a spec or at least a model number so I could research them a bit before taking delivery. They're an SDEC model N485Ca and at 3000 rpm they're a drop-in replacement for the 4.108 and rated at 37.5 hp continuous. Talk about pleased! I'll let you all know how they go, I have to drive to Brisbane (from Sydney) to take delivery in about a fortnight.
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Old 16-04-2013, 02:55   #209
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

I see the argument going around in circles, but quality control is not that expensive. In fact, good QC can save money. I dont know how many man hours go into building a diesel engine but it will always come down to man hours. As of 2011 Chinas manufacturing hourly labour rate was about $1.64us and this is quite an increase on 2008 which was $1.36us. Now compare this with Japan @ $27.80us or the US @$35.53.
If we say 250hrs to manufacture that engine then China's labour cost would be $410 against the US $8882. Even if we claim same presses same specs it is a huge saving before company profit.
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Old 16-04-2013, 07:01   #210
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Re: Chinese Diesel Engines

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Originally Posted by haiqu View Post
Just bought two Chinese diesels off eBay here in Australia a month ago for $812 total. The seller advertised them as "at least 20hp" and also as "engine plus gearbox and spares", the spares being a whole complete second engine. He had already wired and run the one with a gearbox but not installed either of them into a boat.

Now I have two Hartley ferros (OK, I know that makes me crazy in the eyes of some of you already) which both need engines. The Tasman has none fitted at all, the Queenslander has a Perkins 4.108 with a hole in the block where it threw a rod many years ago. So to me, these things were a godsend since I won't be overcapitalizing the yachts by fitting expensive iron mainsails in there.

After winning the auction I asked the owner for a spec or at least a model number so I could research them a bit before taking delivery. They're an SDEC model N485Ca and at 3000 rpm they're a drop-in replacement for the 4.108 and rated at 37.5 hp continuous. Talk about pleased! I'll let you all know how they go, I have to drive to Brisbane (from Sydney) to take delivery in about a fortnight.
Well, I can understand wanting to go absolute rock bottom price on engines for either boat, but I suspect that neither engine will give you more than a thousand hours, if that. Maybe that's all you require, though. And the price was impressively low. That's something.

Of course I would be delighted to be proven wrong, and I will be following your progress and results with great interest. If I'm right, you are out chump change, and a few dozen hours of labor. (might be good to have an outboard standing by, and a can of gasoline, when you take either boat out!) Be careful during the break-in period, and keep your oil clean. I would consider new rings before installing, because the OEM ones seem to go fast and of course add lots of shavings to the oil, and debris in your oil is your bearings' worst enemy. Not to mention the beating your cylinder walls will get. I'm just guessing here, that you should do this, so talk to a mechanic with experience on these motors. Good luck with your engines!
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