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Old 17-07-2018, 08:34   #1
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Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel yester

Re-Starting Problems:

I live in Canada preparing for a 3 week trip to Desolation Sound.
Have a Bukh DV 20 Diesel in my CS 33 sailboat.

Generally well maintained and reliable. No major issues until completing a day long training run yesterday.
Ran out of fuel once before about 5 years ago.- managed to get it running by pumping riser pump and then bleeding at the injector heads.
Re-started fine.

Ran out of fuel yesterday as the fuel float and fuel gauge indicator have never worked.
Replaced the tank five years ago- but mechanic failed to get the new float to work either. By which time I had paid the bill and he had moved along.

Reliant upon recording hourly usage and then topping up and carrying two six gallon jerry cans on trips.
Just plain forget to top up and ran out of fuel when steaming in yesterday,

Never had starting problems; changed out fan belt and oil recently, three weeks ago, Was starting fine.Was running fine every day on long inbound passages.


Put in the fuel from both jerry cans.
Have new batteries so plenty of starting power- keep them charged.
Plan was to change out all oil filters today.

Visible ones look pretty old- last changed them about 2-3 years ago, Had good intentions but was injured and never got to it.As I said all was/were working fine until I ran out of fuel yesterday.

Attempted to start; assisted by sail partner on deck manning the ignition switch.
Would not catch,
Don't have a manual- are there any available online please anyone? Saw online that there is a section on this particular issue in the manual.


Thought and still do think it is an air blockage ...then a bleed problem/solution( see later in post).

Fuel in cans was of different ages but was fresh recently. Noticed the feeder plug on one was loose and may have been open for a while.
Can was full so minimum air gap at top of can.

May have tried to restart with the fuel cap cover off- don't recall but read this could produce a problem in the re-start process?


Re-Start sequencing I tried:

Started with the re-start and bleed sequence.

Opened bleed screw and pumped the little riser pump; no fuel coming out. Continued for a while but no fuel visible or to touch.
Cracked and then removed to check the nut(s) on the rubber fuel hose from the tank ( it seems...behind the little riser pump); and the one attached to the metal pipe that appears to go to fuel filter (?) on the rear of the engine. Both dry of fuel. No fuel pumping through them when I pumped the riser pump. Reseated and tightened these.
Tried starting engine again. No result

Pumped the riser with the fuel bleed screw open; has obviously been used before.
After pumping for a couple of minutes....fuel flowed out of the bleed screw hole.
Re-tightened that. Cracked fuel intake valve/injector valve ( forward one). Pumped...fuel came out. re tightened and then same process and result on second one.


Put riser pump in upward lock position.

Cranked engine over and it finally started.

Ran it for 5 minutes then put into gear and proceeded under power for 10 minutes.
Engine then faded and died. Repeated above processes several times over a very hot 45 minutes..... no fuel from bleed screw or fuel injectors. Removed both fuel intakes from metal filter pipe and rubber tank hose ...both dry of fuel like before.

Tried to prime it, bleed it several more times...cranked over but no result starting it. Even tried loosening both injector head nut and cranking it and loosening and tightening both nuts with fingers to try and create suction- no result.

Eventually sailed into the harbour and got towed to the outside dock ..I can tow to my slip easily this morning where I have power and pumps to extract fuel etc.


Additional problem

Believe this to be unrelated: Last few weeks I have been seeing oil in the rear bilge/under engine compartment.
Have extracted using shop vac and safely disposed of contaminated sea water.


Was pretty dark/black contaminated yesterday- going to remove this this morning and de-grease and look for source of oil leak.
Engine was/is( as far as I know compressing well...and was run for many , many hours successfully) and oil level on dipstick remains the same as when I changed it out three weeks and 20 hours of running ago.

So I can't get the engine to fire up and I have no fuel at the lower points where the two pipe heads are and none on the bleed screw or the fuel injectors.
Am thinking some kind of air block and/or some dirt blocking the pipes and injectors but don't have any knowledge other than above (failed methods) to fix/check this.


Don't fancy removing all the fuel lines/pipes and replccing...unless of course I have to.
Are there any products that may clear these?
Some mention of ' ether ' in forums ? And some warnings of associated dangers in confined spaces?

Have no idea what that is.
Have no idea at present where the fuel /oil in the bilge is coming from.


Have new filters to fit but reluctant to do so until all cleared.

One filter on back wall has a complicated looking clear sump full of fuel in a clear glass bowl and a brass tap and pipe arrangement leading into it?
Recall changing this out but don't recall how( maybe just the filter on top of the glass bowl?) and it also has brass pipe arrangement into it with a small brass tap that turns on and off?


If anyone has any idea I would be very grateful.

Engine turns over fine.... just does not catch,,,tried a couple of attempts to straighten the two linked and parallel manual decompressor bars/rods on the top of the engine, colleague cranked engine then I pushed them back into forward position..engine just whirred and then engaged but would not start.
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Old 17-07-2018, 08:57   #2
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Ah I had a problem much like this a year ago with my yanmar. My fix was to replace the fuel supply line. I suspected that I had either a partial blockage that I could not find or a collapsed hose liner.

Engine ran fine for 5-10 minutes then died. Ran it off a 5 gallon jug of fuel and worked perfectly. Ended up replacing the fuel supply line from tank to fuel pump. Fixed it!.
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Old 17-07-2018, 11:49   #3
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Thank you Sailor Chick.
That's a clever test and hopefully a fix.
I will give it a go.

And let you know.

Cheers.
Cap'n Caliamari.
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Old 17-07-2018, 13:02   #4
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Hi I own a CS 33 with Buhk DV20 also. Had a similar problem 10 years ago. One thing you should try is pulling the lift pump off the engine. It is just 4 bolts but inside the pump there is a tiny brass screen. Be very careful with it. I used Tilex to clean it then washed in fuel and replaced. The screen had become blocked over the years with a black snot. Since then no problems.I have the shop manual for the DV20 but it does not mention this. Also would recommend using a biocide in your fuel. Hope this helps .Peter
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Old 18-07-2018, 07:24   #5
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Sailor Chick and peter,

Thank you for helpful and successful replies.
removed the fuel hose from the tank and fuel pump yesterday. It was new last year. Blew it out with an air line. reinstated it. Bled system from the bleed screw. Kept the m fresh fuel in case I needed to use it from the jug and after the ten gallons of the day before.

Started first time. Ran for 15 minutes, faded and died. Repeated process and throughly tightened bleed screw and injectors. I believe this was/is key. I could then actually ' feel' the pressure rise as I [umped the riser pump until fuel not air bubbles came out of the bleed screw screw.


Placed the riser pump handle in the locked up position. Again started first time. Left it to run for an hour and then with a side tie dinghy /25hp combo as security measure in fast incoming tide and high winds....dinghy in idle in case needed.....made it under my own power back into my slip.

Today i am changing out all of the filters ( as planned two days ago) and will inspect the fuel pump ' basket' for that sludge you mentioned Peter.


On the fuel filter issue Peter: ( if you have a moment more to advise further) ... Do you have a spin on Raycor see-through filtration filter?

My boat does. I was reading that below deck on an inboard it has to be an metal bowl?

Do I need to just drain the bowl and then replace the upper filter part if I keep it? I recall it was the Mother of All Jobs a couple of years ago requiring two persons; the filter is mounted on the back wall of the under sink cupboard recess and the locket port side. One person to unscrew and hold the bolts from inside the locker, the other, after removing the water pump, to unscrew and hold from the inside?


The fuel in the see-through bowl seems to be contaminated with a greenish tinge. I am sure after a couple of years it has sand and all kinds of grit etc. I don't recall changing out the whole unit; just bleeding the bowl, refilling and then replacing the top section?

Thanks again all- very kind and helpful advice.
regards.

Cap'n Caliamari.
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Old 18-07-2018, 08:54   #6
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Does sound like a fuel blockage. Quite often when you run the tank dry you pull all the crap from the bottom into the lines. It may simply be that your filters are now clogged so they wont pass enough fuel. Start at the tank and inspect every section for blockages or restrictions. Is there a filter screen on the pickup etc. The other possibility if you can get easily get access to an air line is to blow through all of it. If it bubbles through in the tank try pulling fuel through. If not start at the tank and crack each connection till you get air. Now you know where the blockage is. If none of this works it could be an air lock. Try removing the feed line at the tank and fitting a bottle some how so you can fill the line by gravity. This can be more effective.
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Old 18-07-2018, 09:11   #7
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

You can download workshop manual for your engine from:

https://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/westerlywiki/images/e/e1/Bukh_DV10_DV20_Workshop_Manual.pdf
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Old 19-07-2018, 06:16   #8
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Captain Calamari My engine has a CAV 296 (now Delphi) water separator . It is metal and has a drain cock on the bottom. Located under the galley sink. Then I have a spin on fuel filter (Bosch) on the engine. Glad you got it going Peter
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Old 19-07-2018, 15:49   #9
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Think of the little screen in the primer pump. It is there for trucks that use this type of primer pump. (Bukh simply buys them ass a complete part). It is completely useless for boat use. I talked about this to a (German) representative of Bukh and his opinion was clear: Wegnehmen und rausschmeissen! Pardon my German, he meant TAKE IT OUT AND THROW IT AWAY.
A boat engine should have a pre-filter and a fine-filter. This screen in the pump adds nothing valuable and is even dangerous, since it is not mentioned in the instruction manual.
Think also of possible clogging of your fuel suction pipe in the tank. My tank could not be drained and after 15 years a big lump of blubber blocked the fuel supply. Make a drain on your tank and drain several times per year. Leave the drained off fuel in a glass bottle and look for debris.
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Old 20-07-2018, 09:08   #10
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Roland, Jan, Uncle G and Peter (again!),

Thank you all for advice and time.
Most helpful.
The Bukh 20 DVsure is an idyosyncratic and tricky little unit!.

Peter thanks for the advice on the filters. Mine has a glass bowl but I am going to persist with it for this trip then change it after to a metal one. It also has the drain valve and the stop cock..... so should be easy to deal with now. It's access to the damn thing on the rear wall of the under galley sink/lazarette( bolted through so takes two to remove and replace it..working behind the screen of the partition!?..that is the problem for 2 x 6'4'' males.

Roland thanks for detailed help. It was an air blockage. Found this out as I removed the fuel to pump line. Some fuel dripped out one end...then when inverted some more out of the other. Blew the lines clear with an air line- all good so far. It has been running now for three hours under load on the dock- so I am going to assume for the moment it was just that blocked line- I know I should check back through the system and will do this before my trip....but for this weekend I am just going to have to wait and see.
Uncle G.
Thank you- I will downlaod this evening. Big help.

Jan: Interesting history and evolution. Guess it the DV20 was a tractor engine like most early marine engines- by adding a few new seals and the word 'marine' in front of the engine number- allows the 3x price hike and the introduction of non-marine/unsafe items?

I will look out for that. On my CS33 the engine is so inaccessible in every aspect and angle....it's hard to see how they chose it or why.

I will bear your excellent German advice in mind. Would we could do the same to tother unknown/unremarked components that endanger us!?

Good solution. My tank was new 2 years ago- float does not work so I like the idea of inserting a drain. Others have also suggested a clear panel to be able to see the fuel levels- although not any contaminants.

LOL
: 4 of 5 owners in a row at my marina..different boat marques..had fuel gauges that did not work and/or no fuel gauge !?


Cheers.

Cap'n Caliamari.
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Old 20-07-2018, 09:20   #11
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Capn Calimari Hi - I know a little bit about Bukhs, though the 20 is now quite an old unit. I put a 24 (the 20's successor) into my MB about 10 years back. is there any way you can PM me on this site with the full problem, missing out other helpful remarks? Be delighted to help.
But NO it was never, ever, ever, ever, EVER, never in a million trillion jillion zillion years a marinised tractor engine !!!!!!!!! It always was a MARINE diesel. (Gets off hobby horse!)
Andrew
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Old 20-07-2018, 09:29   #12
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Andrew Hi,

Will summarize later.
No intention to offend- did not know the Bukh provenance.
Mine needs lots of TLC- or it can run like an old trator sometimes!


Is reliable though.

I saw the 36 Bukh HP is a ' lifeboat' engine so must be highly regarded.
I should have done my research before posting!

Cheers and happy weekending,

CC

http://www.univa.no/files/brukerhandbok-dv36.pdf
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Old 20-07-2018, 09:34   #13
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

And following from my last, my DV24 burns about 1.1 litres per hour (that's around 1/4 (one quarter of one gallon) per hour to our Cousins!). Pushes a 2.25 ton displacement MB at 5 knots at 2000 rpm.

If you keep a log of engine hours, and fuel, and other consumables, used, it's a huge bonus. You DO have an Engine hours meter, don't you? (If not one is dead easy to put in - it's essentially an electric clock linked through the engine electrics circuit. Really useful for engine maintenance schedules, but hey, you can also use it for fuel consumption/time to refuel).
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Old 21-07-2018, 10:00   #14
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Parkstone Bay (one of my favourite places in England).

Thanks for heads up about hours meter.
Previous owner sailed for years on no fuel gauge that worked. Measuring fuel consumption exactly as you suggest on the hours meter. His guide rate of consumption was 1litre per hour at full tilt- yours with an extra 10% margin will be safer. It seems to me you are very experienced with the Bukh engines.

I had a new fuel tank fitted 3 years ago with new lines and a new float etc. The mechanic decamped with my money before I realised he fuel gauge was exactly the same, (non-functioning); althouh I saw him fit the new float. I can't get at it now to modify or repair as it's so tight up against the deck sole and I don't have the skills to remove and replace it. Plus I'm 6'4'' and it's a very cramped and offset engine block.

So I will be careful now with recording the input and hours of usage and carry two extra 5 gallon cans of fuel as well. I know now how to bleed the system and remove and replace, blow out the lines etc. Even if this happens at sea; ( well hopefully not).

I'm just sorting out the replacement fuel filters.
One, ( the water filtration Racor), is particularly dificult to access. I have photos of it. and the other one near it.

I don't want to take up your time; but mindful of your kind offer of help, could I send the photos and get your advice.I cant really see the serial number on the racor and don't want to buy the wrong ones...


Thanks again for your time and help

CC
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Old 21-07-2018, 11:52   #15
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Re: Bukh 20 DV engine: Starting/Restarting fuel problems after running out of fuel ye

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Caliamari View Post
Parkstone Bay (one of my favourite places in England).

Thanks for heads up about hours meter.
Previous owner sailed for years on no fuel gauge that worked. Measuring fuel consumption exactly as you suggest on the hours meter. His guide rate of consumption was 1litre per hour at full tilt- yours with an extra 10% margin will be safer. It seems to me you are very experienced with the Bukh engines.

I had a new fuel tank fitted 3 years ago with new lines and a new float etc. The mechanic decamped with my money before I realised he fuel gauge was exactly the same, (non-functioning); althouh I saw him fit the new float. I can't get at it now to modify or repair as it's so tight up against the deck sole and I don't have the skills to remove and replace it. Plus I'm 6'4'' and it's a very cramped and offset engine block.

So I will be careful now with recording the input and hours of usage and carry two extra 5 gallon cans of fuel as well. I know now how to bleed the system and remove and replace, blow out the lines etc. Even if this happens at sea; ( well hopefully not).

I'm just sorting out the replacement fuel filters.
One, ( the water filtration Racor), is particularly dificult to access. I have photos of it. and the other one near it.

I don't want to take up your time; but mindful of your kind offer of help, could I send the photos and get your advice.I cant really see the serial number on the racor and don't want to buy the wrong ones...


Thanks again for your time and help

CC

Absolutely no probs at all; if I can help I will. Bukhs are super little engines, and given a small amount of TLC will run for ever (but in fairness, so should most boat diesels) - PM me on andrewpmcewen(at)gmail.com. I am based Poole Harbour, South Coast of England, what's your location? Whizz me your pics, specifically of pre-filter (nearest the tank,) other piping, engine installation, tank installation.
Good boating
Andrew
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