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Old 22-11-2011, 10:12   #16
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

So one thing I don't understand is truckers run their diesels at idle for long periods of time b/c startup is more damaging then running at idle.

Then how come idling your diesel at anchor or mooring to make power or water is considered recipe for disaster in marine diesels. Carbon buildup, acid in oil, etc. etc.
If its the temperature of operation, meaning idling at anchor will never allow diesel to reach operating temperature b/c there is no load, then why not put a thermostatic controll valve to bypass heat exchanger flow and regulate temperature at idle? I did this with atomic 4 when heating up the water in hot water tank. I could dial in whatever temperature i wanted A4 to idle at.
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Old 22-11-2011, 10:37   #17
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

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Originally Posted by Seahunter View Post
The Perkins 4-107, 4-108, 4-154 and the 4-236 where and are the most commonly used engines for industrial use. The 107 and 104 are rated as intermittent duty, while the 154 and 236 are continuous duty. The 4-236 is and still is the best diesel engine ever built and was the key reason Cat bought bought Perkins. The 236 is Cats best industrial engine at this time in its Cat 4.4 name tag. The Perkins Sabre M92 is the 236 in a new wrapper. Both the 154 and 236 are CD engines rated at 3000 RPM (24-7) and that's hard to beat in a small engine.
Seahunter, this is great information. I suspected that the Perkins Sabre M92 was a 4-236. Is the M65 a 4-154? Just curious.
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Old 22-11-2011, 11:04   #18
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

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Originally Posted by phorvati View Post
So one thing I don't understand is truckers run their diesels at idle for long periods of time b/c startup is more damaging then running at idle.

Then how come idling your diesel at anchor or mooring to make power or water is considered recipe for disaster in marine diesels. Carbon buildup, acid in oil, etc. etc.
If its the temperature of operation, meaning idling at anchor will never allow diesel to reach operating temperature b/c there is no load, then why not put a thermostatic controll valve to bypass heat exchanger flow and regulate temperature at idle? I did this with atomic 4 when heating up the water in hot water tank. I could dial in whatever temperature i wanted A4 to idle at.
Been discussed at length on other threads and you'll find various heated opinions on it. Personally I think not idling the engine is BS. It's under load due to your alternator etc anyway. If it has a heat exchanger and thermostat, it should be be coming up to a reasonable temperature . It's also remarkable how long a sea water cooled diesel will go, and they run almost cold! I looked at two little boats this summer that were both built in the early 70's. One a Sabb diesel and one a little Yanmar 12 hp. Both seawater cooled in 50+ degree Puget Sound water and both still going strong about 40 years later with no smoke etc. Not sayin cold is good, but these things often get blown out of proportion.
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Old 22-11-2011, 13:28   #19
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

I am yet to run and install the diesel.
So is it correct to assume that if you achieve 190F then load vs no-load does not matter.
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Old 22-11-2011, 13:50   #20
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

Let me disagree with the majority view that truck diesels are largely the same as marine diesels.

Yes the basic guts of both are the same: pistons, cylinders, crankshaft, valve train, fuel injection system, etc. But these don't usually fail. What fails on marine engines are the marine parts: sea water intercooler, exhaust elbow, sea water exchanger, etc.

And the problems one can experience in marine service are entirely different from truck service. Trucks don't care about overpropping, they never get seawater backed up into their turbos and beyond, their raw water pump never fails, their engines rarely overheat and if they do they certainly don't overheat from a clogged R/W intake or a fouled heat exchanger.

So you can certainly benefit from a generic, truck based diesel course, but you really need to know about the marine stuff as well. Mack Boring (the US Yanmar distributer) runs a good marine engine course.

David
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Old 22-11-2011, 13:55   #21
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

I agree completely with Cheechako. No one has ever produced satisfactory forensic evidence that excessive idling or low-speed operation will damage a modern diesel engine that I've seen. My guess is that if you were to engage a discussion with any licensed diesel engineer, he or she would probably say that modern diesel engines will deliver reliable power over a broad range of operating speeds.

When I was a young man, I earned a degree in Diesel Technology, however, it wasn't until I became a mechanic (mostly working on agricultural, earth-moving equipment and over-the-road truck tractors) that I really learned a lot. I encourage education in all forms but I still feel that learning-by-doing is the best teacher.

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Old 23-11-2011, 12:07   #22
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

Thank you tremendously everyone. I expect we will have 6 months to a year(minimum) from the time we purchase our boat until we leave the U.S. During that time we will be located on the coast, docked and living on the boat, as both will be retired.

Based on your comments we will postpone the diesel education until we get on the coast where we can take actual marine diesel.

Guess I am just getting too anxious to start the process. Patience is a virtue I'm not very familiar with.

Again, thank you. I have printed these responses and filed under 'engine' so I have the recommendations when the time comes.
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Old 23-11-2011, 12:28   #23
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

Just noticed on the Mack Engine site that they have the classes in Waukegan, IL

That is just a few hours from us, as we are at the northwest end of Indiana.

Will go to that the year before we buy. That way we won't have to cram soo much in when we are working on the boat to get it ready.

Thank you again, helps tremendously.
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Old 23-11-2011, 15:42   #24
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

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Guess I am just getting too anxious to start the process. Patience is a virtue I'm not very familiar with.
But an essential virtue to learn when sailing.
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Old 23-11-2011, 16:13   #25
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

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Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
Let me disagree with the majority view that truck diesels are largely the same as marine diesels.

Yes the basic guts of both are the same: pistons, cylinders, crankshaft, valve train, fuel injection system, etc. But these don't usually fail. What fails on marine engines are the marine parts: sea water intercooler, exhaust elbow, sea water exchanger, etc.

And the problems one can experience in marine service are entirely different from truck service. Trucks don't care about overpropping, they never get seawater backed up into their turbos and beyond, their raw water pump never fails, their engines rarely overheat and if they do they certainly don't overheat from a clogged R/W intake or a fouled heat exchanger.

So you can certainly benefit from a generic, truck based diesel course, but you really need to know about the marine stuff as well. Mack Boring (the US Yanmar distributer) runs a good marine engine course.

David
Ditto this.

No harm will come from a truck engine course, but you will be learning about all the things that aren't going to fail, and will learn nothing about the common maintenance requirements and likely failure modes of a marine diesel. I think truck diesel issues are a subset of marine diesel issues, not the other way around. Once you learn marine, it's easy to handle trucks, but learning trucks leaves LOTs still unlearned about marine.
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Old 23-11-2011, 17:10   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phorvati
I am yet to run and install the diesel.
So is it correct to assume that if you achieve 190F then load vs no-load does not matter.
My engine won't heat up that much at idle. Not even with a 100 amp alternator.
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Old 23-11-2011, 18:56   #27
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

As for running an engine "lightly" loaded or "heavily" loaded it is also a matter of oil temp as well as engine coolant temp. Some engines have oil "coolers" that are "cooled" by the engine coolant. This is really a means to make sure the oil reaches proper operating temp and stays there. Engines with oil coolers where the oil is cooled by the raw water flow may never reach proper operating temp (the oil that is) and so may not last as long as one would like.
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Old 23-11-2011, 22:44   #28
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

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As for running an engine "lightly" loaded or "heavily" loaded it is also a matter of oil temp as well as engine coolant temp. Some engines have oil "coolers" that are "cooled" by the engine coolant. This is really a means to make sure the oil reaches proper operating temp and stays there. Engines with oil coolers where the oil is cooled by the raw water flow may never reach proper operating temp (the oil that is) and so may not last as long as one would like.
G'Day DeepFrz,

That's an interesting observation (one that I'd never considered), and it may explain the vast differences of opinion on the subject of light loading damage.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 24-11-2011, 22:00   #29
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

Check out Annapolis School of Seamanship's two day Marine Diesel Basics class. You won't be disappointed. If you want to take it farther you can take the level two class that follows. Great class. Great reputation.
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Old 25-11-2011, 06:13   #30
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Re: Boat Diesel vs Truck Diesel

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, sy patriot.
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