Biodiesel Question

[unbusted67]

Does anyone know anything about biodiesel conversions for excisting engines. I am no mechanic, actually a sound engineer by trade, and know a lot of bands who have converted their vans to biosiesel. I have heard of nothing but positve results. I also have also heard that biodiesel is very easy to get and make. There is a women who lives outside my apartment and owns a biodiesel car and it is very pleasant to wake up in the morning and smell Mcdonalds outide my window. Wouldn't mind smelling that in my boat at least better than gas fumes

[kydivemaster]

There is no need to convert anything to run boidiesel just pump and run. It's WVO that requires convertion. Waste Veg. Oil requires preheating to make it combustable. But true B80 is fine and runs great in all diesels.

Keith

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by kydivemaster

There is no need to convert anything to run boidiesel just pump and run. It's WVO that requires convertion. Waste Veg. Oil requires preheating to make it combustable. But true B80 is fine and runs great in all diesels.

Keith

Not quite!

I deal with this stuff daily at our fuel sites and the truck shop. Right now in the cold we're having to deal with filter changes due to the stuff is seperating below freezing and causing filters to plug up. And thats at a 20% mix. Pure bio can eat the seals and fuel lines right out of older equipment.

There's a lot more to say but here's a couple links to get you started and I have a bunch more on the other computer for a later date.

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/feature_guidelines.html

[kydivemaster]

If you believe everything the government tells you, you need to re-think your life..lol. True biodiesel not some guys backyard blend but the good stuff like I buy at the pump in downtown louisville, Ky or out in KS. or TX is good stuff and comes in winter and summer grades just like oil based diesel.

Keith

[kydivemaster]

below stole from your source...

Raw or refined vegetable oil, or recycled greases that have not been processed into
biodiesel, are not biodiesel and should be avoided. Research shows that vegetable oil
or greases used in CI engines at levels as low as 10% to 20%, can cause long-term engine
deposits, ring sticking, lube oil gelling, and other maintenance problems and can reduce
engine life. These problems are caused mostly by the greater viscosity, or thickness, of
the raw oils (around 40 mm 2 /s) compared to that of the diesel fuel for which the engines
and injectors were designed (between 1.3 and 4.1 mm 2 /s). To avoid viscosity-related
problems, vegetable oils and other feedstocks are converted into biodiesel. Through the
process of converting vegetable oil or greases to biodiesel, we reduce viscosity of the fuel
to values similar to conventional diesel fuel ( biodiesel values are typically between 4 and
5 mm 2 /s).

[kydivemaster]

One other thing I found very interesting......

4.1 B20 Cold flow
This is probably the largest concern for blenders and users alike. Blending biodiesel with
petroleum diesel moderates cold flow problems by dilution. The blend also makes the use
of cold flow additives practical, since these are effective in the petroleum portion of the
blend. When biodiesel is blended with diesel fuel, the key variables are the cold flow
properties of the diesel fuel you blend with, the properties of the biodiesel, the blend
level, and the effectiveness of cold flow additives.
B100 cold flow properties depend on composition, which affects the cold flow properties
of blends (Figure 10 through Figure 15). The same is true of diesel fuel. No. 2 diesel fuel
may have cloud points that range from –10 o F to 10 o F on average (some fuels can be
higher or lower than these figures). No 1 diesel, jet A, or kerosene may have cloud points
that range between –40 o F to –60 o F.
Blends of No. 1 and No. 2 diesel fuel are frequently used to meet customer cold flow
specifications (Figure 16). Adjusting the blend of kerosene (or No. 1 diesel) in the diesel
fuel alone or with additives can modify the cloud and pour point temperatures of B20. An
accurate estimate of how B20 will perform in the winter months will require mixing the
biodiesel with the winter diesel typically delivered in your area and testing the mixture.
Your petroleum distributor or refinery may already be blending No. 1 and No. 2 diesels
in the winter, using cold flow additives, or both. So ask your diesel distributor to provide
some samples of winter diesel.

[kydivemaster]

BTW...Most diesels in a marine app. are designed with the third world in mind. so they will run and run well on junk ****.

[delmarrey]

I know what I see. I've been fighting this stuff for 3 years now. Here's the filters I've changed just in the last week. If you can find a better blend then maybe you should be selling it to the City here. Some of these filters are only two weeks old.

I have more picture on another computer that shows the screens from out of fuel site despencers. It looks like tar and takes hot boiling acid to get the stuff off.

Have you ever tried to clean the cooking grease off of the overhead stove vent at home. Well multiply that times thousands of gallons that pass thru the screen/filters. Not my motor! NO way! the political correctness is for the jack ass.

[kydivemaster]

You do know that all diesel dodge products run only bio during testing and when shipped from the factory.

Keith

[delmarrey]

Yeah! And the whole fleet here except the Harbor Patrol and some fire stations run bio and this is what I get to do, change filters all the time. And these are only 10 micron. You can only imagine what a boat filter would do at 3 micron.

Take jar of that cooking grease/oil and put it in the freezer for a day and then take a good look at it. Do you want this stuff running thru your engine?

To get that stuff down to where it's useable it has to be run thru filters and then additives for lubricity. Have you seen the price of filters lately? We go thru thousands of dollars in filters, let alone the labor, just to keep the fleets from road calls. And it’s supposed to be refined when it gets here.

I sure wouldn't want to be out in the ocean changing filters at the most inconvenient time, Murphy's Law.

For trucks with a government allowance, fine. But for boats, it's trouble in the brewing. That's why the Harbor Patrol and fire boats and some fire trucks refuse to use the stuff.

If someone wants to go thru ALL that trouble & $$ to be anti oil companies, that's their choice. The problem is; is it cost too much time and $$$, so far, to make it worth the effort. Maybe 10 years down the road when they come up with a way to refine the stuff at a price that makes it compete able with the real diesel.

I'd like to see everyone save their old motor oil and sell it back to the oil companies and then make diesel from that. There's a lot more used motor oil then cooking oil getting dumped out there...................._/)

[yotphix]

Interesting you should say that del. A friend who was an army tank mechanic once told me that in the field when changing oil they pump the dirty right into the fuel tanks! Not that I am recommending that! No reason it woun't burn though.

[Alan Wheeler]

BTW...Most diesels in a marine app. are designed with the third world in mind. so they will run and run well on junk ****.

Not sure where you get your info from there mate, but that is just simply not true.

[GordMay]

Is Bio-fuel even “politically correct”?

If we take a scarce resource*, food, and turn it into fuel; we will have an end-use competition for that food.
Who is likely to win that contest?
The food-starved poor, or the fuel-starved rich?

* Food is a scarce commodity is much of the world - at least, in distribution, if not production. So too, is arable land on which to grow food, a scarce resource.

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Is Bio-fuel even “politically correct”?

Who is likely to win that contest?
The food-starved poor, or the fuel-starved rich?

Mr. May, you may be my favorite person right now. That is a great point.

I love how I ask a simple question, go off to work and when I return I have twelve thoroughly confusing yet brilliant answers.

Thanks guys

[GordMay]

As H.L. Mencken said: "For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple - and wrong."

Most of us seem to have this relentless passion for seeking simple one dimensional answers to complex problems. It is always tempting to look for easy answers to hard questions, and rush to judgment on issues that take a long time to figure out.
ie: When Alice asked the King of Hearts how to play the game he said, "Begin at the beginning, go until you reach the end, and then stop."

There is a nexus between science fiction and political policy. Things are not always as they seem, and just because something appears to be a socially responsible gesture on the surface, it doesn't mean we aren't still being sold a bill of goods.

Why would we buy into this (these) bill(s) of goods?

Picture a political platform like this:
”I offer no magic bullet, have no glib answers or sweeping theories!
What needs to be done (and I’m not certain what that is) will be difficult, complex, and costly; and the gains (which I cannot identify) will be deferred and moderate.”

Frankly, I don't have enough information and understanding on this issue to form a reasonable or unreasonable, but clear-cut, opinion on the efficacy of Bio-Fuels.

Perhaps I’ll be in a better position to offer easy, simple answers; when I’ve determined what the proper questions should be.

I’ll continue working on it ...