Biodiesel Question

[unbusted67]

Does anyone know anything about biodiesel conversions for excisting engines. I am no mechanic, actually a sound engineer by trade, and know a lot of bands who have converted their vans to biosiesel. I have heard of nothing but positve results. I also have also heard that biodiesel is very easy to get and make. There is a women who lives outside my apartment and owns a biodiesel car and it is very pleasant to wake up in the morning and smell Mcdonalds outide my window. Wouldn't mind smelling that in my boat at least better than gas fumes

[kydivemaster]

There is no need to convert anything to run boidiesel just pump and run. It's WVO that requires convertion. Waste Veg. Oil requires preheating to make it combustable. But true B80 is fine and runs great in all diesels.

Keith

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by kydivemaster

There is no need to convert anything to run boidiesel just pump and run. It's WVO that requires convertion. Waste Veg. Oil requires preheating to make it combustable. But true B80 is fine and runs great in all diesels.

Keith

Not quite!

I deal with this stuff daily at our fuel sites and the truck shop. Right now in the cold we're having to deal with filter changes due to the stuff is seperating below freezing and causing filters to plug up. And thats at a 20% mix. Pure bio can eat the seals and fuel lines right out of older equipment.

There's a lot more to say but here's a couple links to get you started and I have a bunch more on the other computer for a later date.

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/feature_guidelines.html

[kydivemaster]

If you believe everything the government tells you, you need to re-think your life..lol. True biodiesel not some guys backyard blend but the good stuff like I buy at the pump in downtown louisville, Ky or out in KS. or TX is good stuff and comes in winter and summer grades just like oil based diesel.

Keith

[kydivemaster]

below stole from your source...

Raw or refined vegetable oil, or recycled greases that have not been processed into
biodiesel, are not biodiesel and should be avoided. Research shows that vegetable oil
or greases used in CI engines at levels as low as 10% to 20%, can cause long-term engine
deposits, ring sticking, lube oil gelling, and other maintenance problems and can reduce
engine life. These problems are caused mostly by the greater viscosity, or thickness, of
the raw oils (around 40 mm 2 /s) compared to that of the diesel fuel for which the engines
and injectors were designed (between 1.3 and 4.1 mm 2 /s). To avoid viscosity-related
problems, vegetable oils and other feedstocks are converted into biodiesel. Through the
process of converting vegetable oil or greases to biodiesel, we reduce viscosity of the fuel
to values similar to conventional diesel fuel ( biodiesel values are typically between 4 and
5 mm 2 /s).

[kydivemaster]

One other thing I found very interesting......

4.1 B20 Cold flow
This is probably the largest concern for blenders and users alike. Blending biodiesel with
petroleum diesel moderates cold flow problems by dilution. The blend also makes the use
of cold flow additives practical, since these are effective in the petroleum portion of the
blend. When biodiesel is blended with diesel fuel, the key variables are the cold flow
properties of the diesel fuel you blend with, the properties of the biodiesel, the blend
level, and the effectiveness of cold flow additives.
B100 cold flow properties depend on composition, which affects the cold flow properties
of blends (Figure 10 through Figure 15). The same is true of diesel fuel. No. 2 diesel fuel
may have cloud points that range from –10 o F to 10 o F on average (some fuels can be
higher or lower than these figures). No 1 diesel, jet A, or kerosene may have cloud points
that range between –40 o F to –60 o F.
Blends of No. 1 and No. 2 diesel fuel are frequently used to meet customer cold flow
specifications (Figure 16). Adjusting the blend of kerosene (or No. 1 diesel) in the diesel
fuel alone or with additives can modify the cloud and pour point temperatures of B20. An
accurate estimate of how B20 will perform in the winter months will require mixing the
biodiesel with the winter diesel typically delivered in your area and testing the mixture.
Your petroleum distributor or refinery may already be blending No. 1 and No. 2 diesels
in the winter, using cold flow additives, or both. So ask your diesel distributor to provide
some samples of winter diesel.

[GordMay]

Is Bio-fuel even “politically correct”?

If we take a scarce resource*, food, and turn it into fuel; we will have an end-use competition for that food.
Who is likely to win that contest?
The food-starved poor, or the fuel-starved rich?

* Food is a scarce commodity is much of the world - at least, in distribution, if not production. So too, is arable land on which to grow food, a scarce resource.

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Is Bio-fuel even “politically correct”?

Who is likely to win that contest?
The food-starved poor, or the fuel-starved rich?

Mr. May, you may be my favorite person right now. That is a great point.

I love how I ask a simple question, go off to work and when I return I have twelve thoroughly confusing yet brilliant answers.

Thanks guys

[GordMay]

As H.L. Mencken said: "For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple - and wrong."

Most of us seem to have this relentless passion for seeking simple one dimensional answers to complex problems. It is always tempting to look for easy answers to hard questions, and rush to judgment on issues that take a long time to figure out.
ie: When Alice asked the King of Hearts how to play the game he said, "Begin at the beginning, go until you reach the end, and then stop."

There is a nexus between science fiction and political policy. Things are not always as they seem, and just because something appears to be a socially responsible gesture on the surface, it doesn't mean we aren't still being sold a bill of goods.

Why would we buy into this (these) bill(s) of goods?

Picture a political platform like this:
”I offer no magic bullet, have no glib answers or sweeping theories!
What needs to be done (and I’m not certain what that is) will be difficult, complex, and costly; and the gains (which I cannot identify) will be deferred and moderate.”

Frankly, I don't have enough information and understanding on this issue to form a reasonable or unreasonable, but clear-cut, opinion on the efficacy of Bio-Fuels.

Perhaps I’ll be in a better position to offer easy, simple answers; when I’ve determined what the proper questions should be.

I’ll continue working on it ...

[Trim50]

Is Bio-fuel even “politically correct”?


If one would do a little research on bio-diesel, you will find that it requires 15-20Vol% Methanol. Now where does MeOH come from...certainly not the farm.

Although many will say that it is all removed during the blending and washing process, rest assured, it is not. In case you haven't worked with MeOH, it is an extremely powerful solvent...it even dissolves epoxy, corrodes high grade stainless and with enough time, eats right through most every polymer known to man. Running pure bio-diesel will surely scrub your engine...then it will destroy your fuel lines and then corrode your expensive stainless fittings.

[yotphix]

Interesting you should say that del. A friend who was an army tank mechanic once told me that in the field when changing oil they pump the dirty right into the fuel tanks! Not that I am recommending that! No reason it woun't burn though.

[Alan Wheeler]

BTW...Most diesels in a marine app. are designed with the third world in mind. so they will run and run well on junk shit.

Not sure where you get your info from there mate, but that is just simply not true.

[never monday]

Del,
We actualy agree for once!
I've been down the Bio route.
I think in 10 yeasrs it might be a good product. Right now it needs more refinement (nice pum) to resolve the cold properties. I've had it gel here in my garage in a filter bowl. The caustic properties need to be nulified also. The long term political consequence I shouldn't comment on because I am politicly incorrect.

[Alan Wheeler]

I was going top comment earlier on the mix ratio's, but..well...didn't. A 20% ratio is very high IMO. A "safer" ratio is recognised at only 5%. So there is a big jump with 20%.
Pat, are you finding problems with the high mix ratio fuels or the 5% that the engines come with?? I didn't understand that clearly. The 5% as a "safe" ratio is because of the issue with Caustic problems.
I have been looking into buy some gear and trying to make it in my backyard. So I have done a small amount of research into the stuff and how to make it. But several issues arose that have stopped me from doing it. One is supply of cooking oil. It's already being brought up in quantities, I can only guess from people trying to produce BioD. So the supply is not as easy as everyone thinks. There are no great reserves of the stuff that food shops are trying to get rid of.
The second was the by product. Glycerol is produced in huge quantities. That's basicaly the "large molicules" being seperated out leaving a more "pure" fuel oil. It can't just be dumped and there is enormouse quantites already being advertised to get rid of. It is probably not of a quality able to be used in the food industry, so I guess little can be done with it.
And lastly, the equipment and chemicals are not that cheap and IMO you don't save enough per ltr to warrant the time and mess to make the stuff. I am refering to backyard manufacture of course. I imagine, or would hope that commercial production have many of those issues sorted. Otherwise there must be a lot of not very nice by product being dumped somewhere.

Now an interested turn has taken place here in NZ. A local company set up a small test plant down at our local effluent treatment ponds. They are growing an Algae and have then successfully produced biodeisel from it. So far it is still in trial stages, but they have made it work and it looks promising.

[delmarrey]

Here is the site on how to make bio......

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

And here are some more pictures of what happens with biodiesel. This is the by-product of bio when it seperates with temperature.


This is what the bio looks like when pumped out in sub freezing weather


This is a before and after shot of a screen that is used in biodiesel despensers. This is changed once a year unless it clogs up sooner. This stuff on the screen feels like rubber particals.