Biodiesel Question

[never monday]

Originally Posted by kydivemaster

To the fellow above who said his cummins didn't come with bio in the tank that would depend all the one built in Mexico come with PreMex 100% Bio.
Keith

I'm sure your source is valid. I'm saying I don't remember what came in it.
From the sources below i doubt it was B100

From Cummins.com

Warranty and the use of Biodiesel Fuel in Cummins EnginesCummins neither approves or disapproves of the use of biodiesel fuel. Cummins is not in a position to evaluate the many variations of biodiesel fuels or other additives, and their long-term effects on performance, durability or emissions compliance of Cummins products. The use of biodiesel fuel does not affect Cummins Material and Workmanship warranty. Failures caused by the use of biodiesel fuels or other fuel additives are NOT defects of workmanship and/or material as supplied by Cummins Inc. and CANNOT be compensated under the Cummins' warranty.Bosch states in their Diesel Fuel Quality -- Common Position Paper (03/05/99) that no guarantee on FIE is given so far to any alternative fuel except for Diesel + 5% FAME.

I also don't believe B100 will pass federal emmissions at this time. The increased NOx levels from RME(biodiesel) are beyond the standard.

[Trim50]

Is Bio-fuel even “politically correct”?


If one would do a little research on bio-diesel, you will find that it requires 15-20Vol% Methanol. Now where does MeOH come from...certainly not the farm.

Although many will say that it is all removed during the blending and washing process, rest assured, it is not. In case you haven't worked with MeOH, it is an extremely powerful solvent...it even dissolves epoxy, corrodes high grade stainless and with enough time, eats right through most every polymer known to man. Running pure bio-diesel will surely scrub your engine...then it will destroy your fuel lines and then corrode your expensive stainless fittings.

[GordMay]

Methanol Faqs from Outboard Manufacturers

Yamaha Outboard: Yamaha Outboard FAQs

Q. May I use fuels that contain Methanol?
A: No. Only use gasohol fuels if they contain ethanol, and then only in a maximum of 10%.

Q: How do I avoid problems using Ethanol in my Yamaha Outboard?
A: These are the most common problems:
• Ethanol can attract and absorb moisture from the air, primarily through fuel-tank vents. That means a greater chance of water-contaminated fuel.
• Ethanol can dissolve some solid materials commonly found in fuel tanks (such as varnish or even oxidation in steel and aluminum tanks), thereby contaminating the fuel. Additionally it can loosen any corrosion or particulate matter in the fuel system, or even dissolve components in some fuel systems (such as fiberglass fuel tanks).
• Ethanol blends can react chemically with MTBE fuel blends, causing additional contamination. See the FAQ about MTBE fuel blends for more information.
• Because fuels with ethanol tend to chemically break down sooner than other formulas, your gas can go “stale” sooner.

To avoid these problems, Yamaha recommends the following actions if you use ethanol-blended fuel:
• Install a Yamaha mini-10™ filter (under 150 hp) or 10-Micron filter (150 HP and higher) or other 10-micron filter designed for use on boats with Yamaha outboards. Both Yamaha products filter out contaminants and separate water from fuel. This is particularly important on EFI and HPDI engines. Carry spare filter cartridges in case the filter element becomes clogged with contaminants while the outboard is in use.
• Use fuel system components that are compatible with ethanol blends. Replace those in use that are not compatible (e.g., fiberglass fuel tanks).
• Use fresh gas. Do not store fuel containing ethanol any longer than necessary. We recommend regular use of Yamaha Fuel Stabilizer and Conditioner, available from your Yamaha dealer, for extended fuel storage, whether or not your fuel contains ethanol.
• Avoid co-mingling MTBE and ethanol-blended fuels. As a precaution, use only one supplier for fuel purchases in the months ahead to ensure consistency during the industry changeover period from MTBE to ethanol blends. Also see the FAQ on MTBE.

Mercury Marine:
Mercury Marine | Service & Warranty

Q. Are Mercury engines compatible with ethanol fuels?
A. The fuel-system components of Mercury engines will withstand up to 10 percent ethanol in gasoline – the maximum level currently allowed by the EPA in the U.S. There are some efforts to establish E-20 (20 percent ethanol mixed with 80 gasoline) for use in some areas, but that will require agreement from EPA to grant a waiver. Part of the EPA waiver process will require verification from studies that demonstrate that higher levels of ethanol do not create problems with fuel-system materials or operation of hardware. E-20 has not been extensively studied by Mercury and is not acceptable for use in Mercury products. E-85 fuels must not be used in any Mercury engines and could seriously damage current Mercury products. It is not legal in the U.S. to market any ethanol fuel as gasoline if it contains more than 10 percent ethanol.

[Tnflakbait]

I have run my 1997 Mercedes E300 diesel on Biodiesel since 2003. This is a modern turbocharged diesel. No problems. No conversions. No freezing temps.

[svTOTEM]

I’m new to this excellent board and this seems like a good subject to jump in. In my last boat, Hallberg Rassy 352, we ran B100 for a year; and when that was no longer available, B20 for 2 years. We really liked it.

I am aware of possible issues with degradation to hoses/seal, but had no problems (and I did inspect regularly). My understanding is that is more of an issue with older hoses that contained natural rubber. As for fuel filter, I replaced them every 100 hours and they looked normal; certainly nothing like the picture posted above. We currently sail in Puget Sound (can you say motorsail?) and so do not have issues with very cold temps.

All things being equal, i.e. the engine ran great and with no adverse affects as with conventional diesel, one big benefit is the exhaust smell. I’ve sailed with many people that handle a sloppy sea state just fine until a smell triggers a reaction that quickly lands them somewhere between queasy and green. Diesel exhaust and head smells top list of triggers. Our 3 little kids love the smell and have defined all other diesel boats in the broader classification of “yuck, stinky diesel boat”.
Jamie

[delmarrey]

The reason your not having trouble with the cold is your tank(s) is on the inside of your boat where the temps don't get to sub-freezing.

Also the Harbor Patrol and fire boats in the Seattle area refuse to run Bio. Just for the reasons above.

Chemically, transesterified biodiesel comprises a mix of mono-alkyl esters of long chain fatty acids. The most common form uses methanol to produce methyl esters as it is the cheapest alcohol available, though ethanol can be used to produce an ethyl ester biodiesel and higher alcohols such as isopropanol and butanol have also been used. Using alcohols of higher molecular weights improves the cold flow properties of the resulting ester, at the cost of a less efficient transesterification reaction. A lipid transesterification production process is used to convert the base oil to the desired esters. Any Free fatty acids (FFAs) in the base oil are either converted to soap and removed from the process, or they are esterified (yielding more biodiesel) using an acidic catalyst. After this processing, unlike straight vegetable oil, biodiesel has combustion properties very similar to those of petroleum diesel, and can replace it in most current uses.

A byproduct of the transesterification process is the production of glycerol. For every 1 tonne of biodiesel which is manufactured, 100kg of glycerol is produced. Originally, there was a valuable market for the glycerol which assisted the economics of the process as a whole. However, with the increase in global biodiesel production, the market price for this crude glycerol (containing 20% water and catalyst residues) has crashed. Research is being conducted globally to use this glycerol as a chemical building block. One initiative in the UK is The Glycerol Challenge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

[svTOTEM]

Sorry, my point on the cold issue was that Puget Sound does not often get below freezing and therefore we did not experience any problems. I’m in agreement with you that our tanks were inside the boat. My experience with biodiesel was very favorable.

[delmarrey]

I should have mentioned that the City boats are metal, which do get cold inside while sitting at the docks. That's their reasoning.

And good for you I'm glad you're having good results. Keeping the filters changed is the best policy, I have found. I'll be changing out (4) 3 ltr. unites tomorrow.................................._/)

[svTOTEM]

My filters are in good standing. I do have a list as long as my arm on other projects. Our new boat, Stevens 47, is in Alameda and I am 1000 north on Bainbridge Island; and so not making much progress. I fly down on June 1 to wait for a weather window to head out of SF Bay and turn right.

[Inthewind]

Biodiesel is not to be confused with filtered waiste vegetable oil like I burn in my diesel E350 Ford 7.3 liter diesel, Yanmar Diesel 4LHDTE power boat and turbo charged Mercedes Benz. Biodiesel goes through a chemical process and the finished product cost money and it still cost money if you do it yourself with your own still. The waist vegetable oil is free to me and I collect it from chinese restaurants and requires only filtering it. I have 275 gallons stock piled in a tank at my house and I have my own filling station on a trailer. I go out once a week and spend a few hours collecting the stuff and have to spend alittle time filtering the stuff to fuel grade.
I run a commercial diesel fuel filtering or diesel fuel polishing bussiness with commercial grade equipment and it cost me nothing to drive to marinas or somebodies dock to filter thier fuel. I leave keep that detail from my customers as sometimes I drive over a hundred of miles to a job site. My bussiness expense is low to no overhead except for my $1,000,000 dollar insurance policy and the filters I use to polish fuel which are also cheap. That's right, I don't pay $3.10 or more for a gallon of diesel anymore for the most part. I also pick up about five gallons or more of contaminated diesel on every job that I filter and re-use in my work van.
You have to convert the diesel engines fuel system before you can burn straight veggie oil. You have to have a seperate the used veggie oil fuel tank from the diesel fuel tank. The veggie tank has to be plumbed into your coolant system with copper coils in the tank as to heat the oil up to operating temperature and to bring the viscosity of it down to simular to diesel about 160 temp. I have had no issues with burning peanut oil in the three years I have been burning it in my diesel engines. In fact my engine's seem to run quieter and smoother. When I say diesel engines, I also have a 1985 300D turbo charged Mercedes that burns the stuff. I also burn the stuff in my power boat that has a Yanmar 4LHDTE 170 hp turbo charged engine. However,I choose not to convert my Morgan Out Island 41 because that is my long distance cruiser and diesel is my only option as I don't want to carry jugs of oil and I can afford to just put diesel those tanks.
Anyone can convert a diesel vehicle to waist veggie oil and there are a few websites that will help you. I know enough about it that I don't need to buy thier expensive kits and choose to buy most of my parts from the hardware store and auto parts store. Anyway, I am saving alot and I feel I am doing my part for the enviroment because this stuff is enviromentally friendly.
Another thing I should mention is ...Your start the diesel engine on diesel, then when it warms up, you switch to veggie oil. When you shut down for many hours or for the day, you need to purge the system with diesel. You don't want to try to start a cold diesel engine on straight cold veggie oil although it can be done in warmer climates but not recommended as it is much harder to start the engine. I run 3/8's copper fuel line inside 3/4 inch heater hose with Racor filters.
I just thought I would share one of my off the grid tactics and I have many more. I am a thrifty SOB and my tactics make it easier for me to afford to travel around in my Yacht and take alot of time off. It works for me.

Good Luck Chuck

[charley]

I watched a show on discovery channel about alternative fuels. It showed a process in which they used recycled car plastics for the base ie dashboard covers, door panels, and all the cheap plactis panels they put in cars and trucks. They claim that it was cleaner than regular Bio which is made form veggie oil. The viscosity was also closer to pure petro fuel. Maybe in some areas this is used.

[charley]

UNH Biodiesel Group

This is a pretty interesting site. Bio from Algae.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Inthewind

Biodiesel is not to be confused with filtered waiste vegetable oil like I burn in my diesel E350 Ford 7.3 liter diesel, Yanmar Diesel 4LHDTE power boat and turbo charged Mercedes Benz. Biodiesel goes through a chemical process and the finished product cost money and it still cost money if you do it yourself with your own still. The waist vegetable oil is free to me and I collect it from chinese restaurants and requires only filtering it. I have 275 gallons stock piled in a tank at my house and I have my own filling station on a trailer. I go out once a week and spend a few hours collecting the stuff and have to spend alittle time filtering the stuff to fuel grade.
I run a commercial diesel fuel filtering or diesel fuel polishing bussiness with commercial grade equipment and it cost me nothing to drive to marinas or somebodies dock to filter thier fuel. I leave keep that detail from my customers as sometimes I drive over a hundred of miles to a job site. My bussiness expense is low to no overhead except for my $1,000,000 dollar insurance policy and the filters I use to polish fuel which are also cheap. That's right, I don't pay $3.10 or more for a gallon of diesel anymore for the most part. I also pick up about five gallons or more of contaminated diesel on every job that I filter and re-use in my work van.
You have to convert the diesel engines fuel system before you can burn straight veggie oil. You have to have a seperate the used veggie oil fuel tank from the diesel fuel tank. The veggie tank has to be plumbed into your coolant system with copper coils in the tank as to heat the oil up to operating temperature and to bring the viscosity of it down to simular to diesel about 160 temp. I have had no issues with burning peanut oil in the three years I have been burning it in my diesel engines. In fact my engine's seem to run quieter and smoother. When I say diesel engines, I also have a 1985 300D turbo charged Mercedes that burns the stuff. I also burn the stuff in my power boat that has a Yanmar 4LHDTE 170 hp turbo charged engine. However,I choose not to convert my Morgan Out Island 41 because that is my long distance cruiser and diesel is my only option as I don't want to carry jugs of oil and I can afford to just put diesel those tanks.
Anyone can convert a diesel vehicle to waist veggie oil and there are a few websites that will help you. I know enough about it that I don't need to buy thier expensive kits and choose to buy most of my parts from the hardware store and auto parts store. Anyway, I am saving alot and I feel I am doing my part for the enviroment because this stuff is enviromentally friendly.
Another thing I should mention is ...Your start the diesel engine on diesel, then when it warms up, you switch to veggie oil. When you shut down for many hours or for the day, you need to purge the system with diesel. You don't want to try to start a cold diesel engine on straight cold veggie oil although it can be done in warmer climates but not recommended as it is much harder to start the engine. I run 3/8's copper fuel line inside 3/4 inch heater hose with Racor filters.
I just thought I would share one of my off the grid tactics and I have many more. I am a thrifty SOB and my tactics make it easier for me to afford to travel around in my Yacht and take alot of time off. It works for me.

Good Luck Chuck

Good post Chuck,

Don't think i'll be using Biodiesel, yet am very receptive to other waste oil product's being used.

My main tank's are part of the epoxy structure of the boat, and am reading that Biodiesel eat's epoxy, which makes me wonder what it would do to an engine over time.

This guy in Oz has a Waste oil treatment plant on his 20.65 m Powercat

Ozfuturefuels:Home




Dave.

[Jay Jennings]

I know this is an old thread but I just sat for an hour today with a guy who switched his truck to burn waste vegetable oil -- like InTheWind said above, he starts and ends his trip with diesel and switches to WVO in the middle.

This is in Alaska where it's been mostly below zero F for the last few weeks, so the whole cold thing I saw discussed up above doesn't bother him (maybe because of the start/end with diesel?). We talked about the idea of doing the same thing with a sailboat and so I started searching and found this thread.

Oh, he said he doesn't have a problem with filters because he uses a centrifuge. It spins the "bad stuff" to the outside of centrifuge and the good stuff goes out through the middle. Not sure how often he has to clean the centrifuge, but there's no expense issue with it -- just clean and put it back in.

I'll be looking more into the pros and cons of this as an option as I move closer to getting my boat.

Jay Jennings

[Edit: Those of you who know engines may think I'm an idiot -- which could be true, I've never been a "motor guy." Now that I get to thinking about it, the guy I was talking to may have meant he uses a centrifuge to clean the WVO before he pumps it into his vehicle -- not that the centrifuge itself is in the vehicle. Because I do remember him saying something about a 2 micron filter and how they last forever because the centrifuge works so well. ]

[Morgan Paul]

Hey Jay, I got an idea. Get Mcdonald's to pay for your boat and supply you with old cooking oil, in exchange you fly sails with the Golden Arches logo. But you might have to lose that Mohican and dress like Ronald Mcdonald .

Good luck with getting your boat man ,
Paul