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Old 22-11-2014, 09:23   #76
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Plus, automobiles are pretty good faraday cages if grounded, and pretty good floating if ungrounded. I don't think they get hit by lightning much either.
Boats don't get hit by lightning a lot either.
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Old 22-11-2014, 09:32   #77
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
People, you can't escape change. Remember when motor vehicles replaced the horse? Transistors replaced vacuum tubes? Integrated circuits replaced discreet transistors? Computers replaced adding machines?

You learn to live with and accept it or you hide in a corner until you die. You can whine all you want on web forums, it won't change anything. If you can find an old engine and rebuild it and that makes you feel more secure, stop complaining and do it.
It's not trying to escape change. Most sailors readily adopt change in areas that do not impede on cruising, in areas that improve cruising. As far as engines and cruising goes it's trying to get the most reliable and easily fixed engine. Those new engines might be alright for the majority of boat owners that are always within a few miles of the local Yanmar dealer but if you go off cruising it's an added worry. One that can be avoided.

Look at all the cruisers that still buy 2 stroke outboard for their dinks. It's for the same reason they dislike the new electronic diesels. Reliability and easily serviced by folks without a lot of mechanical expertise .. the average cruiser.

And most of us do not remember when motor vehicles replaced the horse.
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Old 22-11-2014, 09:32   #78
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
. With the new ECU controlled diesels it seems to be going backwards in terms of reliability. It is not market driven change as was with autos and transistors but a gov't mandated one which has no solid economic basis, just political posturing to placate their electorate base which personally does not see too many negative consequences of these mandates and thus will never realize how destructive they are individually though very well intentioned theoretically.
Given that is is possible to build a diesel that meets current and future emission requirements without requiring common rail or electronics I don't see why one can maintain the position that it's all the fault of the EPA. It's not because of the EPA that we see common rail technology proliferate. If you want to blame someone, blame the european car buyer who wants a car that comfortably does 250 kph on the autobahn, but that also gets 1600 km on one tank.
"Common Rail Diesel Technology" is very much market driven.
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Old 22-11-2014, 09:33   #79
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
We can partially escape change. That's what those of us with sailboats and not power boats are trying to do. In your examples of change it went from less reliable to more reliable so it was much easier to accept. With the new ECU controlled diesels it seems to be going backwards in terms of reliability. It is not market driven change as was with autos and transistors but a gov't mandated one which has no solid economic basis, just political posturing to placate their electorate base which personally does not see too many negative consequences of these mandates and thus will never realize how destructive they are individually though very well intentioned theoretically.
I think that is a bit too myopic. CR diesels were not developed in response to a US regulation. They weren't developed with the US government in mind at all. They were developed as a genuine advance in technology. And they were developed with a market-driven economic basis - fuel economy, performance and flexibility is primary for commercial vehicles. Politics had nothing to do with it.

I agree that small recreational engines have an emissions mandate reason for being, but why would you expect a manufacturer to stay with an old, outdated design when introducing new models, when all of their other products use different technology and manufacturing? It doesn't make economic sense for them to keep old tooling and parts going. If they can even be sure of sourcing those parts into the future.

I'm not sure the problem is reliability. Just search this forum for diesel problems and you will see that mechanical engines are not very reliable either. CR technology has not gone backwards in this regard, and may actually be more reliable.

I think your issue is not reliability, but that fixing some of the problems that can occur could be more difficult, if not impossible, in the field. This is a valid point.

For the next many years, people who want small marine engines will still have options for older technology - but those options will continue to diminish.

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Old 22-11-2014, 09:35   #80
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Boats don't get hit by lightning a lot either.
Is twice in 30 years a lot? It was twice too many times for me.
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Old 22-11-2014, 09:43   #81
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Boats don't get hit by lightning a lot either.
Boy, I wish that was true! We just experienced our 4th damage from lightning, and pretty much everyone I know around here has had lightning damage. A squall came through 2 days ago and wiped out 4 of the 10 boats in the anchorage. Clouds of black smoke peeling off mastheads…

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Old 22-11-2014, 09:50   #82
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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......... And most of us do not remember when motor vehicles replaced the horse.
I'm hoping you read about it in seventh grade history class.
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Old 22-11-2014, 09:52   #83
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Boy, I wish that was true! We just experienced our 4th damage from lightning, and pretty much everyone I know around here has had lightning damage. A squall came through 2 days ago and wiped out 4 of the 10 boats in the anchorage. Clouds of black smoke peeling off mastheads…

Mark
I have a trawler and the advice I've been given is if lightning is headed towards me I should seek refuge inside a circle of sailboats.
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Old 22-11-2014, 10:06   #84
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
I'm hoping you read about it in seventh grade history class.

I knew I should have stayed in school another year!
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Old 22-11-2014, 10:08   #85
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
I have a trawler and the advice I've been given is if lightning is headed towards me I should seek refuge inside a circle of sailboats.
That may seem to be the safe bet, but a couple of years ago we were in an anchorage with a powerboat smack in the middle of ~15-20 sailboats. I watched a lightning bolt drill straight into that powerboat while not touching any of the sailboats at all.

The boat had John Deere CR engines and the ECU's were damaged so it couldn't run. JD flew in new ones overnight (to the San Blas Panama islands!), they were slapped in place pretty quickly, and the boat was on its way to a place to repair all the other damage within a day or two.

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Old 22-11-2014, 10:14   #86
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I think that is a bit too myopic. CR diesels were not developed in response to a US regulation. They weren't developed with the US government in mind at all. They were developed as a genuine advance in technology. And they were developed with a market-driven economic basis - fuel economy, performance and flexibility is primary for commercial vehicles. Politics had nothing to do with it.

I agree that small recreational engines have an emissions mandate reason for being, but why would you expect a manufacturer to stay with an old, outdated design when introducing new models, when all of their other products use different technology and manufacturing? It doesn't make economic sense for them to keep old tooling and parts going. If they can even be sure of sourcing those parts into the future.

I'm not sure the problem is reliability. Just search this forum for diesel problems and you will see that mechanical engines are not very reliable either. CR technology has not gone backwards in this regard, and may actually be more reliable.

I think your issue is not reliability, but that fixing some of the problems that can occur could be more difficult, if not impossible, in the field. This is a valid point.

For the next many years, people who want small marine engines will still have options for older technology - but those options will continue to diminish.

Mark
No one questions that there are advantages to electronic controls, what the issue is can it be repaired by the DYI or by someone in a remote part of the world.

If one is dependent on having to take an ECU into a specialized dealer, and add all the costs on top of that, what advantage is there for the boat owner? Electronics will fail, and they fail at a much more rapid rate than mechanical components.

It just doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 22-11-2014, 10:17   #87
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
It just doesn't make sense to me.
It doesn't have to - it is just going in that direction regardless.

As for taking it to a specialized dealer if problems occur, buy an engine that doesn't require this. I just gave the example of John Deere overnighting ECU's to a boat in the San Blas Islands off the coast of Panama. These were brought right to the boat by a Panga. Others gave an example of being able to buy a spare ECU from their engine manufacturer. Don't buy from anyone requiring you to deliver the boat to a specialized dealer for repairs.

I doubt you have any real data supporting your statement that electronics on these engines fail at a much more rapid rate than mechanical components. That may sound "right" to you, and support your bias, but personally I suspect it is quite the opposite. It certainly is for automobiles and commercial vehicles.

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Old 22-11-2014, 10:18   #88
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Re: Beware new yanmars

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Just irks me the way the epa always picks on the little guy. There are NO regulations regarding emissions from large tankers and ships and surprisingly they are the largest polluters out there. I read one large container ship coughs out emissions equivalent to 50 million cars. I watched one ship going going down the st johns spewing out a yellow fog behind it that covered hundreds of yards on either side of the river. Just like the good old representative government, pick on the small guys but let the big money real polluters get away with whatever they want.
It that just so.
Now I'm wandering why I have to arrange for DNV surveyor to attend my ship next week to undergo annual surveys for, oh what was it called, oh yes, "International Air Pollution Prevention".
Apparently it is a MARPOL requirement, been around for some time.

What else do we get surveyed environmentally wise, sewage, oil, cargo residues, ballast water.

I take it that your boat has been surveyed for the above and passed muster.

But for a quick fix, lets get rid of all these nasty cargo ships, and we'll air freight everything in, I'm sure the conscientious consumer will gladly meet the hugely increased costs of all their imports, oil, food etc
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Old 22-11-2014, 11:41   #89
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Re: Beware new yanmars

My intention when I started this was to get information out about electronic engines . I found it hard to find very much real world info about them in boats . If you can replace them like that post about the JD s that got hit by lightning then no problem . If they are replaceable in the field that is the major thing . Does anyone know which engine ecu can be replaced without technical support and which ones require proprietary (?$ ) help ? For now the lack of info about them is problematic and I don't pretend to know anything . Rather than judging whether it is a good idea or not it would be nice to hear from people who know how they are being used in different engines and reports of problems / satisfaction in the real world .
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Old 22-11-2014, 12:39   #90
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Re: Beware new yanmars

The issue as I see it is the reliance on the vendor to replace/repair,
usually at very highly inflated prices.
This isn't an EPA issue at all, it is the profit motives of the corporation that produces the product. The government could get involved and force them to publish data, etc, but that would be meddling in the free market.

If you want to be independent, maybe build your own engine so you can fix it yourself.
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