Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-11-2014, 12:52   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,242
Re: Beware new yanmars

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlightPlan View Post
What EPA does not take into account is that we sail "pleasure craft" and probably use the motor less that 1500 hours per year. Our contribution to the pollution is so fractional to the proclaimed problem with CO2 emissions. In my situation also sailing offshore and having the engine limited to idle rpm due to some clogged or damaged sensor can be dangerous. Its not like you can call AAA and get a mechanic sent to the side of the interstate.

Don't blame the EPA. There are several manufacturers out there that demonstrate that you don't need ECU's or other complex electronics to meet the guidelines.



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2014, 12:53   #32
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,056
Re: Beware new yanmars

Mechanical Diesels will go the way of the two stroke, Yes several two strokes held out for some number of years with the Australian Orbital system being very notable, but I believe eventually the four stroke became just as light, powerful simple etc.
Common rail, unless something else better comes along is here to stay, and the old, noisy, heavy Diesels are on the way out.
Not a bad thing actually as it's pretty much impossible to meet current emissions without it, and Diesels may well have gone the way of the steam engine without it.

I don't know how Beta does it, but think either there is a little less stringent emissions standards for boats or something.
At least we don't have to run urea through or exhaust systems
__________________

__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2014, 13:56   #33
Registered User
 
FlightPlan's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Boat: Little Harbor 58
Posts: 116
Re: Beware new yanmars

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Don't blame the EPA. There are several manufacturers out there that demonstrate that you don't need ECU's or other complex electronics to meet the guidelines.



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
I was told by one manufacturer rep that it's a $30,000 per day fine to sell a Tier 2 engine after 12/31/2013.
__________________
FlightPlan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2014, 15:43   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,957
Re: Beware new yanmars

I wish that any "smart" device were required to have a "stupid" switch.

More efficiency etc is fine, but it would be great to be able to turn all that crap off and just run...run ruff, run dirty, but get my butt home. Trouble is the smarts creep into the basic design and the device (engine in this case) wont function w out it.

Mercury eTec engines for example are a clever, hi tech, 2 stroke design which meet USA emission standards and are very fuel efficient, but if the electronics fail you are done...that's why I don't have one on my skiff. I have an old smoke and oil belching Yamaha Enduro, but I can do any repairs just short of a major overhaul w basic hand tools (and don't need many specialized tools for that)...reasurring when far from support.
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2014, 22:17   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,242
Re: Beware new yanmars

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlightPlan View Post
I was told by one manufacturer rep that it's a $30,000 per day fine to sell a Tier 2 engine after 12/31/2013.
So you don't.
But that still doesn't mean that you have to sell an engine with electronics. There do seem to be quite a few engines out there that are EPA Tier III certified that don't require complex electronics.
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2014, 23:22   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 1,375
Images: 7
Re: Beware new yanmars

Had a look at a new Yanmar a few years ago to replace the #GM30 in my boat because it was aging and had insufficient torque to spin the prop if it got at all fouled (Spend a fair bit of time in crocodile country and diving over the side to scrape a prop can lead to serious health problems) The two things that decided me against a new Yanmar were the amount of electronic and electrical gadgetry hanging on it and the price. Bought a Kabuto V2203 50HP naturally aspirated engine and hung a twin disk marine gearbox on the back of it. It has done a couple of years of work and appears to be going well.

Unusual features of the marinization are the raw water cooling and two starter motors I installed in the DIY bell housing. Seems to use less fuel than the old 3GM30.
__________________
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2014, 00:02   #37
Registered User
 
SailRedemption's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New Orleans
Boat: Kaufman 47
Posts: 779
Re: Beware new yanmars

To the OP, I have bought a new Yanmar 4JH4-TE this past summer. It's installed in he boat, not running yet. I understand it has common rail, but I'm just not seeing a ecu anywhere on it or in the manual. Do you have a picture of it on the engine? I can't find part numbers or anything about this on the Internet. I'm offshore at the moment but I don't recall seeing anything resembling a ecu on it.

I also, have no regrets with my purchase, it was the best option for me, size, weight, price, hp wise. The Yanmar couldn't be beat. As for any engine, you get what you put into it. A mechanical engine will likely fail if you don't filter it correctly or disregard and abuse it. Maybe it's because I'm young and grew up in technology.

And the new Yanmar is I believe the part of the new Tier 4 regulations. The new Saber Perkins you buy today are old stock remans, that's how they get around that, I'm sure beta does the same thing. How long that will last I don't know, the EPA will probably close up loop holes eventually.
__________________
SailRedemption is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2014, 12:48   #38
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Beware new yanmars

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
I wish that any "smart" device were required to have a "stupid" switch...............
I worked for a large public school system in the maintenance division. We were asked to attend a demonstration of a new school's computer controlled energy saving heating and cooling system.

The guy spent an hour or so demonstrating how the system could sense occupancy and adjust the need for heating or cooling, considering the outside temperature trends etc.

When he got through he asked if there were any questions. One of the old time electricians asked "How do you bypass it"?

There is a saying in industry that it usually takes a new generation of mechanics before new technology is understood and accepted.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2014, 13:05   #39
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,056
Re: Beware new yanmars

With any electronically controlled engine, there is usually a "stupid" switch, just the switching is automatic, often called the limp mode, where the engine is allowed to run, but at reduced power and RPM to protect the engine.

Common rail is essentially the same as the fuel injection in an automobile with a common supply of fuel under pressure supplied to individual injectors that are electronically fired.
Two major differences, first on a spark ignition engine, fuel can be delivered to the back side of the intake valve and allowed to build up until the valve opens and the engine draws in the fuel and air mixture, so a low fuel pressure is possible, like maybe 50 PSI or so.
You can't do that on a Diesel, reason is Diesel ignition occurs the moment fuel becomes available so that all the fuel has to be delivered in a very short time period, higher the RPM, the shorter the time. This is why Diesels are usually low RPM engines, has nothing to do with strength, compression ratio or anything else. To get the fuel in the cylinder in such a short time requires stupid high pressures, common rails often run in the neighborhood of 30,000 PSI, the amount of electrical current to operate a fuel injector being held closed by 30,000 PSI of fuel is considerable.

Common rails brings all kinds of possibilities with it, you can actually vary injection timing, you can do a "split shot" of fuel, a little bit to get the fire going followed by the main charge, that's why common rail engines can be as quiet as gasoline engines etc. In the event of an overheat you can shut off cylinders and rotate which ones are shut down to protect the engine etc.

Common rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2014, 13:07   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 596
Re: Beware new yanmars

The new JD Tier III 4 banger engine will use about 15% more fuel over the Tier II engine when running at 35/40% load.

Be thankful that MARPOL/EPA are not requiring Tier IV which needs DEF for emissions control. Tier IV will be on tractors and heavy equipment but not on smaller marine engines. It appear the marine industry was able to get MARPOL/EPA to back down from the Tier IV requirement. JD says that you will need 1-3% DEF per gallon of fuel burn. So for the boat we want, we would need at least 60 gallons of DEF every fill up. Given that we want to go to remote areas of the world, getting DEF could be problematic so having 120 gallon DEF tank would be prudent. Putting 120 gallon tank in the boat means some other storage has to go, either fuel or space.

If the boat runs out of DEF, the engine runs at lower HP.

The JD reps at the WA Trawler Fest told me that if the engine ECU is fried so is the engine. You have to carry at least one spare ECU that is protected from lightning.

Later,
Dan
__________________
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2014, 07:21   #41
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 252
Re: Beware new yanmars

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatyardBoy View Post
To the OP, I have bought a new Yanmar 4JH4-TE this past summer. It's installed in he boat, not running yet. I understand it has common rail, but I'm just not seeing a ecu anywhere on it or in the manual. Do you have a picture of it on the engine? I can't find part numbers or anything about this on the Internet. I'm offshore at the moment but I don't recall seeing anything resembling a ecu on it.

I also, have no regrets with my purchase, it was the best option for me, size, weight, price, hp wise. The Yanmar couldn't be beat. As for any engine, you get what you put into it. A mechanical engine will likely fail if you don't filter it correctly or disregard and abuse it. Maybe it's because I'm young and grew up in technology.

And the new Yanmar is I believe the part of the new Tier 4 regulations. The new Saber Perkins you buy today are old stock remans, that's how they get around that, I'm sure beta does the same thing. How long that will last I don't know, the EPA will probably close up loop holes eventually.
Boatyardboy. I suggest that refrain from commenting where you obviously don't have the specialized knowledge. I cannot speak for Yanmar or Perkins but you are totally wrong with saying (or even hinting) that Beta Marine are supplying reman engines. All of our engines are brand new Kubota diesels that have been tested and approved by the EPA for marine use. This testing and approval cost us a lot of money and time to get.
Stanley Feigenbaum
Beta Marine US Ltd.
__________________
NCboatrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2014, 08:01   #42
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: St Augustine, FL
Boat: Woods Vardo 34 Cat
Posts: 2,827
Re: Beware new yanmars

Yanmar has been using toyota diesels for some time in the 6 cyl engines. Perhaps this engine is what was available cheaply from another source so they bagged the mech iCal injection. On the plus side, if it is a jap or Asian small car or truck engine it will likely be very well refined in a short time, but make sure you take good care of all your electrical connections and plugs.
__________________
Check out my MoJo: Facebook.com/mojomarine1
Boatguy30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2014, 08:24   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: Beware new yanmars

Common rail fuel injected engines also take fuel filtering requirements to a whole new level. And you don't want to be cracking off injector lines at the pressures that they operate at either. Working on the high pressure side of a common rail injected engine can be dangerous if you don't have the training.
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2014, 08:29   #44
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,056
Re: Beware new yanmars

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Common rail fuel injected engines also take fuel filtering requirements to a whole new level.
Yeah they do, imagine what a tiny piece of dirt can do to a nozzle at 30,000 PSI. Ever seen a water jet cut thick steel plate?
Injectors for my Duramax truck engine are $3,500 for a set of eight also, I had to replace mine at 125,000 miles, far less than I expected them to last.
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2014, 09:40   #45
Registered User
 
Island Time O25's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,019
Re: Beware new yanmars

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
"This was extensively prototyped in the 1990s with collaboration between Magneti Marelli, Centro Ricerche Fiat and Elasis. After research and development by the Fiat Group..."

Aaah, FIAT was involved. That pretty much says it all.
__________________

__________________
Island Time O25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
yanmar

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yanmars and 2 Micron filters in Racors? CarlF Engines and Propulsion Systems 29 11-05-2013 01:31
Electric Repower Cost Analysis - Value of Yanmars Microship Engines and Propulsion Systems 8 02-10-2011 16:12
Aluminum Engine Part Failures in Yanmars ? Dockhead Engines and Propulsion Systems 8 11-09-2010 20:02
Pricing Yanmars Herbseesmoore Dollars & Cents 8 28-07-2010 01:39



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.