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Old 17-12-2015, 12:25   #1
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Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

I'm new to the forum working with my buddy in P.R. regarding a 43' Gulfstar sailboat that we're in the process of buying. The price is good but the Perkins 4108M engine may be seized. From a picture it's certainly very rusted under the valve cover. The batteries are full but he only get's one click when he tries to start it. I'm headed there in Jan to see what can be done to check out the boat and engine after all the papers are signed. Any suggestions as to how to proceed and how to determine if it's fixable would be greatly appreciated. We may be looking for another used or reconditioned 4108M Perkins. My experience with diesel engines is limited unfortunately. Looking forward to hearing from those who do know!
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Old 17-12-2015, 12:29   #2
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

ALL perkins 4-108s are repairable. see thread named ka lunk.
they are tractor and forklift and long term usage engines and toleraate abuse. hoping that once you tear it down you find perfection, but, send for the tad diesel or tradewinds diesel rebuild kit an dmake sure you have the 4-108 shop manual.
or a good mechanic for diesels..even a jr college diesel class...
you willbe most happy with it once it is made perfect.
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Old 17-12-2015, 13:00   #3
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

If there is serious rust under the valve cover, don't go any further, take it out and overhaul it.
Even if you got it running, you don't want all that rust running around in the oil chewing up expensive parts
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Old 17-12-2015, 13:29   #4
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

When sitting for a long period, it's not uncommon for the rings of one or more piston to rust to the cylinder walls. But, that doesn't necessarily mean the engine is unusable.
When I was young I had a pardner boat. My pardner was poor at maintenance. I was spending long times at sea and in the military. Twice I came home to find the engine seized. Both times I got it loose and in the end, that engine ran 30 years before it's 1st overhaul.
Verify engine is siezed, not bad connection, battery, etc. Check the oil for water. If no water, the engine probably can run if loosened. One method it to put a socket and a long breaker bar on the front pulley nut. Maybe a longer pipe over the breaker bar. Better is to use an impact wrench. Preferably one that is used to take big truck wheel nuts off.
Something new I have used is Kearney Rust Cutter. Available at better industrial suppliers and sometimes on Amazon. If you remove the injectors and spray heavily in each cylinder, wait 10 minutes or so, then the engine should break loose easily. Along with lubricants, rust cutter contains a light acid that dissolves rust. You'll have to change oil after, but could start on existing oil, warm the engine and then change the oil and filter.
You will get smoke. If it goes away, do a compression or leak down test. At least you should have an engine to move the boat around before overhaul. As zeehag said, a class on engine overhaul or any gas mechanic should be able to do the overhaul by exactly following the manual.
There are several places to download a manual. 4108 is a reliable and long lasting engine if cared for.
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Old 18-12-2015, 10:23   #5
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

Normally, diesels do not rust inside. For rust to appear they must have been exposed to water and not used for a very long time. A full block overhaul probably will be more expensive than buying a good used block.
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Old 18-12-2015, 11:19   #6
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

Hi, A Click when you try to start the engine, does not mean the engine is seized. It could just be a Battery problem, starter problem, a solenoid problem or just a bad electrical connection between the starter and the batteries. You must first try to turn the engine by hand, remove the injectors then try to turn it, if you cant (and its a four cylinder it may be tough) then remove the starter and try again, if it still wont turn, use a screwdriver on the starter ring teeth and see if you can get it moving. Its just a case of fault finding. If you cant do it, get help from someone who can which may mean hiring a mechanic.
Good luck
All the best
Colin
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Old 18-12-2015, 13:15   #7
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
One method it to put a socket and a long breaker bar on the front pulley nut. Maybe a longer pipe over the breaker bar. Better is to use an impact wrench. Preferably one that is used to take big truck wheel nuts off.
AND IF the engine IS SEIZED you will shear the woodruff key

use a lever a big screwdriver on the teeth of the starter ring gear to see if you can turn the crankshaft.
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Old 18-12-2015, 13:17   #8
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

I know where at least 3 of those motors are but I don't know where the OP comes from?
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Old 18-12-2015, 14:05   #9
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

Happened to mine. With a socket on the crankshaft pulley's nut, and a long bar or extension, whack the handle of the bar hard, with a hefty 2x4 wood piece or large, heavy wooden mallet to turn it clockwise, then try to pry, (not impact shock because that's how you remove the nut from the crankshaft pulley) counterclockwise a bit as to 'rock' the spots on all the contact places along the gears, bearings, rings, cams, inside the entire engine.
Repeat the clockwise whacking. If still no movement, begin taking things off and individually lubricate places like valve train from the valve cover, remove injectors and pour 2 shot glasses of transmission fluid, remove water pumps, try some more rocking, then front cover, lube the shafts there, keep trying before you get to remove valve rockers and actual engine head to expose the pistons. Transmission fluid works great at dissolving carbon. Keep whacking and prying backwards to create rocking and lubricate. Should loosen it up. Then try the starter, then change the oil, etc. Good luck.
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Old 18-12-2015, 15:16   #10
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

This may seem obvious, but if it was me, I would negotiate the cost of a full rebuild into my offer for this boat. Then I would use those saved dollars to DO the rebuild, either DIY if appropriate or with t he aid of a pro.

All the suggestions for resuscitation of a morbid diesel are correct IF you already own the engine, but to not include the cost of a rebuild in your bid is a mistake IMO.

Jim
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Old 18-12-2015, 15:34   #11
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

I Agreed with Jim, negotiate!
Here is a link to the downloadable shop manual http://www.boatservicehaarlem.nl/per...shopmanual.pdf
Good luck
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Old 18-12-2015, 18:48   #12
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

Yes, deduct price of a good rebuild. Don't forget to include the cost of removing and re-installing the engine.
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Old 18-12-2015, 19:19   #13
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

Probably getting it for scrap value anyway? If it's as bad as described I'd be checking out wiring etc to see if it's been dunked?
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Old 19-12-2015, 09:55   #14
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

"Something new I have used is Kearney Rust Cutter. Available at better industrial suppliers and sometimes on Amazon. If you remove the injectors and spray heavily in each cylinder, wait 10 minutes or so, then the engine should break loose easily. Along with lubricants, rust cutter contains a light acid that dissolves rust. You'll have to change oil after, but could start on existing oil, warm the engine and then change the oil and filter." Lepke


Lepke,
I've never heard of Kearney's. There is very little technical info on the web other than a listing for the product and the price. Some have said that it is similar to POR 13 which is a rust neutralizer rather than a rust dissolver. When my friend moved his CT from Miami to Annapolis six years ago, he did not properly pickle his generator. I believe it is an Onan. Upon advice from a mechanic, he has removed the injectors and poured a transmission fluid/acetone mixture into the engine. Two cylinders are draining slowly. One, does not. Do you think there is a chance that this will work? You have mentioned that it should loosen the rust in ten minutes. Should he spray it now or wait until Spring? I am going to refer him to this discussion on CF. Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 19-12-2015, 10:12   #15
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Re: Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

rust under the valve cover would definitely be a bad thing. It's probably junk. First thing: try to turn the crankshaft with a big breaker bar and socket. But as mentioned, it's likely got to come out anyway.
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