Badly rusted, maybe siezed Perkins 4108M

[gjordan]

Can the OP post the photo that was sent to him about under the valve cover??? A little rust from condensation is not good, but maybe not terminal. If it looks like a typical ball of rust, plan on a total overhaul. The photo would help give a better opinion(all things are opinions on CF). _____Grant.

[donradcliffe]

Keep an eye out for a used 4108. I sold a non-rusty, running one for $1000 including tranny, and both parties were happy with the deal.

[Lepke]

Kearney Rust Cutter: made by Cooper Power Systems, and sold to people working on power transmission lines for loosening rusted ferrous nuts several hundred feet in the air. I found a can of Kearney in a shop I rented. When working on a badly rusted pump and looking for some lube I tried it. The spray is very thin liquid that looks like graphite is in it. The can lists parrfinic distilates,heptane, butane, propane, and Oleic acid. Last time I bought it on either ebay or Amazon.
I have never seen anything remotely as good. It penetrates the threads. After a few minutes, the nut comes off easily. On studs it sometimes takes 2 sprays and about 10 minutes. Really big nuts 2"+ a little heat helps.
I have a friend with a sawmill and equipment that is always outside in a damp environment - coastal Oregon. Usually it sits, uncared for, sometimes for several years, until he needs it. Sometimes an engine seizes. I get called for help - he's not much of a mechanic and I'm not in the mechanic business, but like everyone, I help my friends. The last few seizes I went thru, I thought of Kearney. I pull the injectors or plugs and spray heavily. I want enough spray to run down onto the rings. Sleeves, rings, and bored blocks are usually ferrous. 1/2 a spray can on a 6 cylinder diesel. Let it sit for 10 minutes or so. On a big diesel I use a heavy breaker bar and a 6' cheater. But like I said, I prefer an impact wrench and drive in the direction that tightens the bolt. Regardless of the engines rotation. I'm not rotating it more than enough to get it loose and never had a problem.
Rust inside a sitting engine isn't the end. My family had a business after WWII pulling ships out of mothballs for the new owners. Much of my family was in the maritime trades. Many diesels were not properly pickled. Often the fuel was still aboard - and it didn't separate like today's fuel and burned much better. Thank you EPA. As I got older the diesel generators became my job to get running. Rust inside the engines was common. The old fuel was filtered and it started the engines. Later the oil and filters were changed. In those days oil filters were bypass and took out many more fine particles.
In my youth I was professionally trained on aircraft piston engines and later on heavy duty diesels. I had a marine salvage and repair business. Most of my experience is on Detroits, GM and FM diesels.

[rognvald]

Thanks for the great information, Lepke! We're hoping Kearney's will free my friend's generator and I'm going to get a can for myself. Good luck and good sailing.

[tmanderson]

I appreciate the message and it seems likely we'll be needing another engine. I was sent a poor picture but the rust look pretty substantial. I won't know until I there in a few weeks for sure. Easier to replace the engine than a total overhaul for me given my limited diesel experience.

[rognvald]

Lepke,
I've looked everywhere for the Kearney's Rust Cutter and it is not available. Any sourcing? Thanks, Rognvald

[River Cruiser]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Lepke,

I've looked everywhere for the Kearney's Rust Cutter and it is not available. Any sourcing? Thanks, Rognvald

http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont...st_cutter.html


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[brianlara 3]

As i understand it you primarily want to know if the engine is siezed or not yes?
I have probably FULLY overhauled 15 X 4-108s.
Rust under the rocker cover does not, of itself alone, indicate siezure.
Your only valid reason to even suspect siezure is a click!
Perks/Lucas starter motors are well known to professionals for having any or all of the following:
1. A starter motor drive gear, the pinion, jambed/ locked up against the ring gear which encircles the flywheel.
2 . S/motor solenoid contacts corroded.
3. Invisibly loose battery terminals/solenoid terminals.
Too many other choices to consider before condemming motor.
If you arent comfortable establishing wether any of the above applies get an electrician, automotive or otherwise or an objective mechanic to establish for you that the motor HAS actually locked up. You may be wrong, it may be a storm in a teacup.
A few dollars spent with a spark or mechanic in the bilge may be money well spent.
Cross the "buggered motor" bridge once youve arrived, not before.
Good looking.

[brianlara 3]

P.S. IF the motor really is shot, toss it in the bin and buy a FULLY reconditioned motor i.e. re-bored, all crankshart journals ground, all new valve gear...rocker cover bolted on, ditto sump, painted head to toe by professional engine rebuilders, NEW injectors & pump.....or take your chances with potential crap and never ending nightmares. FWIW (free to you!).

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by River Cruiser

Kearney Rust Cutter


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River Cruiser,
I called them and left a message last week. No response. Best, R

[boatbrain]

I've revived a lot of boat engines, how about this:

1. If by some miracle the engine moves, you would immediately start pulling in dirty diesel which would foul the pump and/or injectors. So, shut off fuel supply, but also remove the supply line at the fuel pump - and make sure no dirt gets in there by covering it well with clean plastic bag. You can use cable ties sometimes to hold the bag in place. But put the cable tie somewhere you can cut it off without marring and fuel line faces.

2. I would remove the starter as it is likely too corroded to work. Once it is out you can bench test it by hotwiring it but hold it down, preferably bolt it to something solid, if it works it will jump on you.

3. I would not put an impact wrench on it. I would try to rock it by hand, with no big extensions.

4. If it did not break free by hand easily, I would remove injectors and put a LOT of Kroil Oil - rated the best by various tests - into each injector.

The claim of any penetrant breaking rust loose in ten minutes - or even ten hours - seems optimistic to me. My experience with Kroil - first off, the millwrights I worked with loved it -but more than that, I put some on the badly rusted battery hold downs the previous owner of my truck had never cleaned up. Nothing at first, at least, not loose enough to risk breaking the bolts by reading torqueing them down - but there was a depression around the bolt heads that kept the Kroil sitting there - a few days later, I hear a rattle under the hood - the badly rusted seeming impossible bolts had shaken out on their own.

The product mentioned by the other poster may be better, but I still would think to wait at least a couple days with the pistons totally covered in penetrating oil before really going into 'nothing to lose" mode on the engine.

Considering how hard it is to work on an engine in place and the likelihood of success I would say you should consider pulling it immediately if it's an "easy" pull - and I differ with other posters - I don't think you can rebuild everything and I don't think the long life and proven quality of the engine is relevant to a severe corrosion situation.

[Boatyarddog]

Use Kroil penetrant, works magic.
Loosened frozen valves in the guides without disassembly.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_2k4ruwn6ry_b


Sent from SV Cloud Duster

[boatbrain]

I don't know where to get it or if there is something just as good, but there is a product called "Zoom Spout"

It's just a small plastic squeezable bottle with a long translucent semi rigid plastic spout.

You can put light machine oil in it, or fill it with Kroil oil - and then you can deliver the oil or penetrant into very small spaces in very small amounts.

It occurs to me, you would have to use a lot but your might be able to get the Kroil into individual cylinders without removing injectors -

My thinking is, in cases where the engine was stopped, running fine, and is now stuck it's probably due to corrosion, hopefully not severe corrosion, in the cylinders or valve guides from condensation - and the zoom spout would be able to get the penetrating oil to the right part of the intake manifold, and the valves and valve guides on one side.

Honestly the fact the OP was talking about rust under the valve cover is not encouraging - maybe check for water in the oil?

[Boatyarddog]

I had a very similar issue with my current 4-108, not laid up properly it rusted the top end valve train, and seized Three valves in their guides.
Long story short, was able to free valve with Kroil and clean up the valve train, replace 3 pushrods that were bent, and lube up the mechanism.
Everything purrs now, 4-108 s are tough diesels.


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[brianlara 3]

Would love to know how the OP is going with this search.
Bit of feed back would possibly help many people.