Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-01-2015, 09:14   #16
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,387
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

There is often a fuse on the ignition wire to the starter solenoid from the key switch or start button. Sometimes cleverly hidden down under the alternator.
__________________

__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 09:53   #17
Registered User
 
sanibel sailor's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sanibel FL
Boat: 1979 Bristol 35.5 CB
Posts: 978
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

Got an engine wiring diagram? Many times they are modified over the years, but it is a good place to start..
__________________

__________________
John Churchill Sanibel FL
NURDLE, 1979 Bristol 35.5 CB
sanibel sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 09:55   #18
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,649
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

How about the factory service manual?

Is there water in the fuel?
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 10:35   #19
Registered User
 
sanibel sailor's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sanibel FL
Boat: 1979 Bristol 35.5 CB
Posts: 978
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

what engine you got?
__________________
John Churchill Sanibel FL
NURDLE, 1979 Bristol 35.5 CB
sanibel sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 10:42   #20
Moderator
 
cabo_sailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tarpon Springs FL
Boat: Cabo Rico 38
Posts: 1,905
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

I have a Westerbeke 46. In starting the engine I have to continue to hold the glowplug switch after the engine starts until I show oil pressure, otherwise it quits.

Located at the aft end of the engine, near the top, just front of the heat exchanger is a small solenoid(?) roughly 2x2x1 inches. By feeling around a small protruding button can be found. To reset I just push that button. I found out about it when my engine wouldn't crank and I started tracing wires in the engine manual.

Rich
__________________
cabo_sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 11:03   #21
Registered User
 
BentP's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Denmark
Boat: Amel Mango 52
Posts: 69
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

I vote for the Stop solenoid, try and test if it is activated for some reason.
__________________
BentP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 11:17   #22
Registered User
 
sanibel sailor's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sanibel FL
Boat: 1979 Bristol 35.5 CB
Posts: 978
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
I have a Westerbeke 46. In starting the engine I have to continue to hold the glowplug switch after the engine starts until I show oil pressure, otherwise it quits.

Located at the aft end of the engine, near the top, just front of the heat exchanger is a small solenoid(?) roughly 2x2x1 inches. By feeling around a small protruding button can be found. To reset I just push that button. I found out about it when my engine wouldn't crank and I started tracing wires in the engine manual.

Rich
I had the same on my W30. It is actually a push button circuit breaker. I ditched it when I rewired (with wiring diagram for future owners), went with visible glass fuses in an accessible location. Also got rid of the horrid 8 pin trailer light style connector.
__________________
John Churchill Sanibel FL
NURDLE, 1979 Bristol 35.5 CB
sanibel sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 11:44   #23
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Not sure how a blown fuse would stop the engine. Maybe they have a fail safe so the engine shut down solenoid stops the engine if you press the glow plug switch? Do you have a stop solenoid?
Some stop solenoids shut the fuel supply down when power is applied to the solenoid. Others require power to the solenoid for fuel to flow.

I have no idea what system his engine uses but that's a possibility.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 16:37   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Rio Dulce, Guatemala
Boat: Morgan 382
Posts: 8
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

If your starter turns the engine, have you considered that you might have vaporized the fuel doing by holding the glow button, and the engine shut down due to lack of liquid fuel to the injector pump. How about checking for fuel thru the injector pump and just bleeding the engine. I have a Perkins 4-108 and don't know if the Westerbek is self priming or has to be manually primed.
__________________
MHW382 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 17:31   #25
Registered User
 
Madehn's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kemah Tx
Boat: Gulfstar 51
Posts: 84
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

My vote is for a fuse as well- you have too much that requires power not showing any- disregard the light for now and start looking for a fuse or breaker - has to be at a place that powers fuel, starter solenoid - go to starter solenoid and go backwards through the system towards on the positive wire- somewhere in that circuit is a fuse or breaker that is blown/tripped- there is a reason you are not getting power that far- you can take a meter and check at various points for instance - do you have power at the key switch- if not go further back
__________________
Madehn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 17:55   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 559
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

Glow plugs don't heat the fuel, they heat the combustion chamber air. So they would have nothing to do with vaporizing the fuel, which can only happen at the injector spray tip. What could have happened is that with the engine running, and the alternator putting out voltage, the current could have overloaded the glow plug terminal in the ignition switch if that is how his system is set up. He said the he had the motor running full throttle (which would be detrimental to the engine by itself on cold start) when the voltage regulator kicked in it would be pushing at least 50 amps, and what ever voltage, which could have cooked the start, and fuel shut off solenoid if so equipped!
__________________
mike d. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 19:26   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Norway
Boat: Koopmans 40 aluminum centerboard cutter
Posts: 31
Send a message via Skype™ to SY Marelot
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

Good people of the forum, i have spent my day pulling my engine wiring appart since yesterday, and have only logged on now, - im overwhelmed at all of those good suggestions and constructive replies. Some of you have led me onto something which i will investigate further tomorrow, - the problem is narrowing down to two possible electrical faults, either at the panel in the cockpit, (which has at least one loose wiring). Or, at the relays at the engine. This is a Perkins Prima M50 about 1996 and the instrument panel is VDO. The ship is a 40 ft Dutch built aluminum cutterrigged centerboard Koopmanns design. Aluminum = separate negative leads. All electrics are two poled. Also the sensors etc at engine.

Ok, so my working hypothesis at the moment is the relays. The relays are 3: for glowplugs and the start relay and negative earthing relay. Now, from the wiring diagram, these three relays are connected. And, the solenoid for the fuel shut off is connected through a diode to the negative earthing relay. And, there is supposedly a fuse on the wire from the negative earthing relay, to the negative pole of the battery. This however, i can not find. According to diagram, stop solenoid is ESOS (energise to stop), however, from chronology of Evenes refered in earlier post, it behaved more like the "demanding electricity to open - type".

Earlier i communicated with some of you about the "black box" which we thought could be the controls of the engine electrics. It wasnt. I began dismantling the wires, and then noticed it says "eberspacher" with small letters.... But the heater is still running, thank God.

So, this is the status. Ill updated on the progress tomorrow evening, US East coast time. A bit of wind and boat just slipped a mooring line, then pulled out the dock feed to the 110 v AC, so luckily i noticed.

For now, thanks to all who have contributed greatly, - and also to those who have merely confused me, - thanks, all leads are worth pursuing in such a situation. Im glad im at a dock, - would have been terrible to endure this mess at sea, - everything pulled apart to get at the wires... And its freezing cold here in the outskirts of the chesapeake...

Greetings, Marelot
__________________
SY Marelot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 19:43   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Norway
Boat: Koopmans 40 aluminum centerboard cutter
Posts: 31
Send a message via Skype™ to SY Marelot
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

Oh, and another thing: Mike D in post earlier assumed that; "He said the he had the motor running full throttle (which would be detrimental to the engine by itself on cold start) when the voltage regulator kicked in it would be pushing at least 50 amps, and what ever voltage, which could have cooked the start, and fuel shut off solenoid if so equipped!"

Well, Mike, this is not the case, - the Perkins m50 manual specified full throttle on startup when cold, but any normal human being, to which category even sailors mostly belong, will offcourse reduce throttle immediately when engine springs to life. I didnt think it would be necessary to specify this in the chain of events description.

(And "Evenes" above is the way a norwegian ipad writes "events".. Sorry for that, havent yet figured out how to turn off autocorrect)

Greetings, Marelot
__________________
SY Marelot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2015, 20:38   #29
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,205
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

If done professional, or by factory. You should have a re-settable CB with in 7 inches of the power post on the starter. This will feed the engine panel and all associated relays for fuel, stop, and the helm panel.

On every of the Factory Perkins engine wire harness, this is the case. Some boat manufactures forgo the Perkins harness, for their own.

Still you should have a CB that powers the Helm and relays, it will either be at/near the starter power lug, or the start battery.

Lloyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by SY Marelot View Post
Good people of the forum, i have spent my day pulling my engine wiring appart since yesterday, and have only logged on now, - im overwhelmed at all of those good suggestions and constructive replies. Some of you have led me onto something which i will investigate further tomorrow, - the problem is narrowing down to two possible electrical faults, either at the panel in the cockpit, (which has at least one loose wiring). Or, at the relays at the engine. This is a Perkins Prima M50 about 1996 and the instrument panel is VDO. The ship is a 40 ft Dutch built aluminum cutterrigged centerboard Koopmanns design. Aluminum = separate negative leads. All electrics are two poled. Also the sensors etc at engine.

Ok, so my working hypothesis at the moment is the relays. The relays are 3: for glowplugs and the start relay and negative earthing relay. Now, from the wiring diagram, these three relays are connected. And, the solenoid for the fuel shut off is connected through a diode to the negative earthing relay. And, there is supposedly a fuse on the wire from the negative earthing relay, to the negative pole of the battery. This however, i can not find. According to diagram, stop solenoid is ESOS (energise to stop), however, from chronology of Evenes refered in earlier post, it behaved more like the "demanding electricity to open - type".

Earlier i communicated with some of you about the "black box" which we thought could be the controls of the engine electrics. It wasnt. I began dismantling the wires, and then noticed it says "eberspacher" with small letters.... But the heater is still running, thank God.

So, this is the status. Ill updated on the progress tomorrow evening, US East coast time. A bit of wind and boat just slipped a mooring line, then pulled out the dock feed to the 110 v AC, so luckily i noticed.

For now, thanks to all who have contributed greatly, - and also to those who have merely confused me, - thanks, all leads are worth pursuing in such a situation. Im glad im at a dock, - would have been terrible to endure this mess at sea, - everything pulled apart to get at the wires... And its freezing cold here in the outskirts of the chesapeake...

Greetings, Marelot
__________________
FlyingCloud1937 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-01-2015, 20:24   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Norway
Boat: Koopmans 40 aluminum centerboard cutter
Posts: 31
Send a message via Skype™ to SY Marelot
Re: Accidentally pressed glow-button on controls for Perkins engine

Thanks for all constructive input and good suggestions from forum members, it has been very helpful. I can now start my engine.



Ok, situation at 3 pm US ECT.


The engine wiring seems to have been modified in order for aluminum hull installation. So probably a bit different than installing a Perkins in fibreglass hull. Two leads to most components and no common ground. There is no engineroom circuitboard on these Perkins M50 1996 installations. Helm installation is completely separate, as it should be.


During the work i have tested out all 3 engine relays (glowplugs, negative earthing, and start relay), during which the "water in fuel" indicator has turned itself off. As far as i can find, there is no sensor for water in fuel in this engine installation, so maybe that warning light is wired to something else.


Tried: Bypass everything by: a) hotwiring defective keyswitch , b) briefly applying 12v (negative) to the starter relay at engine. This started engine, ran smoothly, but since i do not know whether other indicators, lights, audible alarms for oilpressure and cooling are functional, the engine was stopped at panel. The electric stop button is functional and stops the engine. The rest of panel is still unresponsive.


Ok, now i start working on finding the defect in the wiring from the VDO panel, to the start relay, as i think this must be where the main problem is. Im not used to interpreting wiring diagrams. The ones i have for this installation are overwhelming, so the progress is a bit slow.

And, two days ago, before this electric failure stopped my engine, - I had no idea what a relay does, how the control panel in the cockpit controls the engine, or how the impulse from the keyturn gets to turn the starter. In a way Im glad I spent those two days getting to know my engine a bit better.

So, - I had a mechanical problem, I posted it on the forum, I got constructive feedback, I used that advice to try fix the problem and I actually managed to get the engine to run (although, so far without functional sensors, but well enough to save me in a tight spot).

I think that case-stories like this should have some sort of conclusion : For me the lesson learned is the following, and I hope it can be of general use;

In a car, if there is an electrical problem stopping your engine, you pull over at the side of the road. In a boat, you pull over at the side of a reef.

The fact that my engine turned out to be so vulnerable to a simple mistake (accidentally pressing the wrong button) means that for me that it will be very important to learn the basics of how to start the engine in a situation with defunct electrics.

Basically, to run, the simple diesel engine needs the following; 1) fuel pump solenoid must open, 2) electric power must be applied to starter motor.

Thats it. Basically that is what it takes. All the other electric stuff is necessary to ensure the well-being and longevity of the beloved engine, - but in a tight spot or failure, you might just need to know how to persuade the solenoid to open, and the starter to turn. The rest is up to God the almighty.



Ok, guys, wish me luck with my sensors and remember, - an apple a day keeps the mechanic away, - if you let him approach a bit and then aim for his head... ;-)


Thanks,

Marelot
__________________

__________________
SY Marelot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
accident, engine, perkins

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Perkins 4108 engine/trans controls JD13 Engines and Propulsion Systems 6 12-12-2013 14:52
Accidentally put water in diesel tank ... Slowpoke Engines and Propulsion Systems 66 04-01-2012 11:17
Hard Pressed in The Ionian ionianpilot Europe & Mediterranean 2 21-11-2011 09:10
Pressed vs Hand-Sewn Rings Patrick_DeepPlaya Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 11 31-01-2011 18:18
Electronic Engine/Gear Controls DHHong Kong Engines and Propulsion Systems 7 26-03-2007 04:05



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.