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Old 29-01-2014, 20:20   #46
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

did you try my suggestion of running without air filter? restricted airflow will cause the symptom of reduced revs, You will also see un-burnt fuel in exhaust water. simple and cheap test.
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Old 29-01-2014, 21:40   #47
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Pull the injection pump and injectors, have them tested?
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Old 30-01-2014, 00:11   #48
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Big thanks to Bob. oil changes done and fuel filters changed. Learnt a fair bit.
The outcomes.
Its not the air filter
Its not blocked fuel lines.
In the end we were not able to get the motor started after the fuel filters where changed. We bled the motor quite a few times.
Twice she started and ran roughly but never picked up revs and eventually stopped.
During the bleeding process. The first 3 cylinders sperted fuel from the injectors when the motor was turned over. The fourth injector dribbled fuel rather than spurting it. It was different to the other's? ?
Regarding the original rev problem. It is looking like a problem with the throttle lever, within the injection pump itself. ie. The lever is physically prevented from reaching the stopper screws.
Time to call in the pros.
Can anyone recommend a good mechanic in Sydney.?
I think we are going to remove the injectors and pump to get them overhauled.
Unless you guys can come up with something else?
Thanks for the help so far.
Jeff

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Old 30-01-2014, 00:14   #49
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

The culprits.

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Old 30-01-2014, 02:29   #50
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

I don't wish to be rude or offensive but I respectfully suggest you think about going to a diesel engine maintenance class.
If you are out cruising you need to know at least how to change your fuel filters and bleed the system of air and what spares to carry on board.
As a previous post has said you must clean the complete system from the tank pick up, the fuel pump gauze, change the filter(write the date on it). Before going on to the next stage.
As it has not been changed since 2010 it's very likely the engine oil also needs changed and, as has been suggested get a mechanic to do it, take notes and lots of photo's but learn to do it yourself.
After all that's done send me a message and I'll tell you of a kit that makes bleeding the fuel system very very easy.
I hope this is helpful.
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Old 30-01-2014, 04:11   #51
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

One thing that hasnt been mentioned is to make sure your engine kill lever is travelling its full distance of throw. If its not it will act like a governor and keep the rpms low. Mine gets sticky when its not worked regularly and Ive experienced sypmtoms similiar to what you are going through.
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Old 30-01-2014, 04:36   #52
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

I regard to forsailbyowner, what is the mechanism that shuts the engine down?, does it move freely, does it go to correct position in repose.

Other than that:-
Bit of a worry you can't get a start at all now. You got another problem.



Given the information so far as you have reported, you have a fuel pump problem since the day you got it, maybe a bit worse.
I think its a bosch type fuel pump fascinating things, variable fuel delivery using a positive displacement pump, with a scrolls that rotates due to force of governor, lands, spill ports, wonderful engineering and highly polished matching parts.
Nope you can't do it, those special pentagon shaped bolts would even make me hesitate (2nd jpeg). But given my undisputed clairvoyant skills, I'd say its not much more than cleaning up & lubricating the sliding internals. But business being a bit slow they may talk you into a complete FP o/haul and you may have to wait for parts.

So heres your plan, get that engine going, you may have damaged some copper washes on the banjos. Then get a fuel pump specialist down for a definitive diagnosis (maybe a couple of quotes), then you have a choice of repair now or some later time that may suit you better (That is if the engine limitation is useable), hopefully they can just take end cover off to help move the fuel rack & free it up a bit.
Now the fuel pump is nothing more than a variable delivery positive displacement pump that for some reason is restricted in its movements between idle and somewhere less than design, its still measuring a precise amount of fuel into each of your cylinders at precisely the right moment. It has nothing to do with why it won't start now. So fix that fail to start problem first and try not to disturb anything else. To do that, could be you need annealed copper washes. And if you got a header tank, take your fuel from there. (Can’t understand why they are not more common)


Disclaimer, I know fuel injection on larger diesels, we use to lubricate the fuel racks and pinions and always checked they weren't sticking, different technology they were open not in a block like yours. I don't know people in NSW anymore. Not encouraging you to do test injectors, change one parameter at a time.


Have you got a pdf of the fuel system.
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Old 30-01-2014, 04:48   #53
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Just a small follow up. When you removed the morse cable and pushed the speeder to its end limit, was it restricted by that "setscrew" that I can see in the second jpeg. What happens if you back that setscrew off a few turns in the "increase speed direction".
But of course you have to get it started first.
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Old 30-01-2014, 13:42   #54
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoohaa View Post
Big thanks to Bob. oil changes done and fuel filters changed. Learnt a fair bit.
The outcomes.
Its not the air filter
Its not blocked fuel lines.
In the end we were not able to get the motor started after the fuel filters where changed. We bled the motor quite a few times.
Twice she started and ran roughly but never picked up revs and eventually stopped.
During the bleeding process. The first 3 cylinders sperted fuel from the injectors when the motor was turned over. The fourth injector dribbled fuel rather than spurting it. It was different to the other's? ?
Regarding the original rev problem. It is looking like a problem with the throttle lever, within the injection pump itself. ie. The lever is physically prevented from reaching the stopper screws.
Time to call in the pros.
Can anyone recommend a good mechanic in Sydney.?
I think we are going to remove the injectors and pump to get them overhauled.
Unless you guys can come up with something else?
Thanks for the help so far.
Jeff

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Jeff at least you know that the problem is not the fuel system as far as the injection pump, not the morse cable or the air filter.
I feel that the throttle control is impeded internally, it does not get any where near the expected range of movement and you are correct to get a couple of best estimates from mechanics. I will ask the local diesel injector specialist what his considered opinion is and get back to you. Cheers.
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Old 30-01-2014, 14:14   #55
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

The last time I had a Bosch fuel injection pump redone it cost $850 US. If it has been a long while that you've had the problem, start with the injectors first, get them serviced, replace copper washers at the banjo fittings, test for air leaks in your fuel system, get it running. If the same problems persist then get the fuel injection pump serviced.

You could also take the hard fuel lines off and blow them out with air, replace them and see how she goes.

If you do remove the fuel injection pump be very careful to keep the engine in the exact same rotation position until you get the pump back. If you're engine rotates and you reinstall the pump with the marks on the pump not matching those on the engine it won't start and run properly if it will start at all. In fact it will sound very much like the problems that you currently have.
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Old 30-01-2014, 14:38   #56
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Last time I had an air in fuel issue i cranked and cranked and bled and bled with no result until I used silicone spray for starting fluid. This stuff works like a champ. Just be careful to not overheat the starter while bleeding. 20 seconds orr so at a time with a cool down period between attempts. Dont want to turn one problem into multiple by burning up your starter. In the perkins manual for your engine there is a fault diagnosis chart, I recommend working your way through each possible issue listed for the problem at hand. you will learn much about your engine and probably take care of some neglected maintenance issues at the same time. If you dont have a manual they are available for download here, They have every manual you might want for your engine. I found the fault finding section in the workshop manual to be a little more descriptive than the fault diagnosis manual below.

Fuji Yachts Website

http://www.fujiyachts.net/manuals/Pe...ng%20Guide.pdf
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Old 30-01-2014, 15:02   #57
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Honestly...I haven't read the reply's here. I currently own 2 Perkins diesel engines, and have owned several Perkins model 4108, but only one Perkins 4107. (a different engine) One thing that we can be all sure of, they all leak oil!...BIG TIME! Foley offers a retro rear seal....someone said it didn't work for them...I doe Noe!.....If you have a Perkins 4108.or 4107...leave it alone....don't touch it.....just change oil very regularly..like every 50 hours...RUN these engines under 1700 rpm...they will outlive YOU.
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Old 30-01-2014, 15:13   #58
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

One thing that we can be all sure of, they all leak oil!...BIG TIME!


I wonder if mine had the seal in it when I bought it. Ive had mine for 8 years now and never had to add any oil between changes
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Old 30-01-2014, 15:18   #59
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Hoohaa

Way back in post #18 asked how to check the volume of fuel going through the return line. It's fairly easy but first the engine has to be running and warmed up. What you do is with engine stopped, remove the return line end at or near the tank and put it in a 4-6 liter container. Clear plastic is best or one with a large open top if it is not clear, you want to observe the fuel as well as check volume. Secure can and hose to prevent spilling from vibration and start engine, rev to specified RPM and note fuel quantity over one minute. Also observing fuel for any air or irregular flow etc.

the manual is here http://www.wyc.ca/pdf/information/ta...INS_MANUAL.pdf

I had a quick look but didn't see a spec for it. None the less it is a good test for your fuel system. Details about fuel system start page 103
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Old 30-01-2014, 16:04   #60
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish rambler View Post
I don't wish to be rude or offensive but I respectfully suggest you think about going to a diesel engine maintenance class.
If you are out cruising you need to know at least how to change your fuel filters and bleed the system of air and what spares to carry on board.
As a previous post has said you must clean the complete system from the tank pick up, the fuel pump gauze, change the filter(write the date on it). Before going on to the next stage.
As it has not been changed since 2010 it's very likely the engine oil also needs changed and, as has been suggested get a mechanic to do it, take notes and lots of photo's but learn to do it yourself.
After all that's done send me a message and I'll tell you of a kit that makes bleeding the fuel system very very easy.
I hope this is helpful.
Yes. it would be a great idea to do a diesel maintenace class. Have aleays intended to do something like that with my wife along as well, but havn't got there yet. Hope they hold one here in Sydney somewhere?
The pics showing the date on the oil filter are old pics. The engine has been maintained and just got its 100 hour oil and fuel filter changes yesterday. We have established that the fuel system is clean and is not blocked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
One thing that hasnt been mentioned is to make sure your engine kill lever is travelling its full distance of throw. If its not it will act like a governor and keep the rpms low. Mine gets sticky when its not worked regularly and Ive experienced sypmtoms similiar to what you are going through.
It has an electronic solinoid for this. It can be seen in the last pic. Its the cylindrical device sticking out of the left or back of the pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanride007 View Post
Just a small follow up. When you removed the morse cable and pushed the speeder to its end limit, was it restricted by that "setscrew" that I can see in the second jpeg. What happens if you back that setscrew off a few turns in the "increase speed direction".
But of course you have to get it started first.
The lever doesn't contact the bolt. There apears to be something internal preventing the full movement. Definately worth checking out. Has anyone had this problem before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
Jeff at least you know that the problem is not the fuel system as far as the injection pump, not the morse cable or the air filter.
I feel that the throttle control is impeded internally, it does not get any where near the expected range of movement and you are correct to get a couple of best estimates from mechanics. I will ask the local diesel injector specialist what his considered opinion is and get back to you. Cheers.
I am phoning around aswell. Will be interesting to hear the different opinions and price geustimates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
The last time I had a Bosch fuel injection pump redone it cost $850 US. If it has been a long while that you've had the problem, start with the injectors first, get them serviced, replace copper washers at the banjo fittings, test for air leaks in your fuel system, get it running. If the same problems persist then get the fuel injection pump serviced.

You could also take the hard fuel lines off and blow them out with air, replace them and see how she goes.

If you do remove the fuel injection pump be very careful to keep the engine in the exact same rotation position until you get the pump back. If you're engine rotates and you reinstall the pump with the marks on the pump not matching those on the engine it won't start and run properly if it will start at all. In fact it will sound very much like the problems that you currently have.
Great advice, thanks. Where are the banjo fittings? I will try and find them in the manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
Last time I had an air in fuel issue i cranked and cranked and bled and bled with no result until I used silicone spray for starting fluid. This stuff works like a champ. Just be careful to not overheat the starter while bleeding. 20 seconds orr so at a time with a cool down period between attempts. Dont want to turn one problem into multiple by burning up your starter. In the perkins manual for your engine there is a fault diagnosis chart, I recommend working your way through each possible issue listed for the problem at hand. you will learn much about your engine and probably take care of some neglected maintenance issues at the same time. If you dont have a manual they are available for download here, They have every manual you might want for your engine. I found the fault finding section in the workshop manual to be a little more descriptive than the fault diagnosis manual below.

Fuji Yachts Website

http://www.fujiyachts.net/manuals/Pe...ng%20Guide.pdf
Where did you spray? Over the injectors?
We did give the starter a work out yesterday, so will go a bit easieron her next time.
I will check out the manual , thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Skipper View Post
Honestly...I haven't read the reply's here. I currently own 2 Perkins diesel engines, and have owned several Perkins model 4108, but only one Perkins 4107. (a different engine) One thing that we can be all sure of, they all leak oil!...BIG TIME! Foley offers a retro rear seal....someone said it didn't work for them...I doe Noe!.....If you have a Perkins 4108.or 4107...leave it alone....don't touch it.....just change oil very regularly..like every 50 hours...RUN these engines under 1700 rpm...they will outlive YOU.
No real oil leaks to speak of. Touch wood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenn.225 View Post
Hoohaa

Way back in post #18 asked how to check the volume of fuel going through the return line. It's fairly easy but first the engine has to be running and warmed up. What you do is with engine stopped, remove the return line end at or near the tank and put it in a 4-6 liter container. Clear plastic is best or one with a large open top if it is not clear, you want to observe the fuel as well as check volume. Secure can and hose to prevent spilling from vibration and start engine, rev to specified RPM and note fuel quantity over one minute. Also observing fuel for any air or irregular flow etc.

the manual is here http://www.wyc.ca/pdf/information/ta...INS_MANUAL.pdf

I had a quick look but didn't see a spec for it. None the less it is a good test for your fuel system. Details about fuel system start page 103
Thanks. we did actually go through the trouble shooting list yesterday, Its in one of my manuals. My manuals havn't really been much help yet. So I am still on the lookout for a really comprehensive manual.
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