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Old 21-02-2014, 09:24   #136
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoohaa View Post
The little lever feels like it's doing nothing but it does produce results up to the injection pump but I am always left wondering if it's doing much.
Am I correct in thinking that it will only pump past the injection pump to one of the injectors as the other 3 are closed.

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The lift pump is also activated mechanically inside the engine. This means that the pumped can be stroked depending on the position of the lob on the cam and if so, the hand lever may not actually do anything. Sometimes you have to turn the engine over either mannually or with the starter just a little bit until the pump is no longer stroked by the lobe and then the hand lever will work. Usually when there is air in the fuel line before the injector pump the lever will be harder to stroke than when the fuel lines are fully primed. i.e it gets easier once all the air is out of the fuel lines. Once you hit this point the fuel is returned through the return line to the tank(s).

As has been said before, a diesel engine only requires fuel, air and compression to run. So you must be missing one of these. You could have a sticky shutoff solenoid, a bad lift pump, etc. One way to check the lift pump is to crack one of the fuel filtres and work the pump manually. You should be able to pump a nice flow out of the fuel filter with the lift pump by hand. Tighten the filtres and crack the fuel line to the injection pump or loosen the bleeder screw if you know where it is. Pump the hand lever on the lift pump till you get a good flow of fuel and tighten the line or screw while continuing to pump the lever. Once this is done you can then start to crack the injectors one at a time while cranking the starter until the engine is running however it should not take more than 2 injectors to get the engine to run. Sometimes it will idle rough until all the injectors are bled but usually not.

From your original post regarding the engine revs my best guess would be that you have a fuel restriction problem. This could be likely caused by the shutdown solenoid. Other possible problems are screens, weak lift pump, etc. You can measure the rate of return fuel once the engine is running to determine whether there is sufficient fuel flow as per information from Perkins. I believe someone else also posted this suggestion.

You seem to be hung up on the injection pump whichI do not believe is your problem. These pumps are usually very reliable and I would not recommended touching anything on the pump and do not remove it as they have to be expertly installed to ensure proper timing.

You will chase your tail forever unless you start from the beginning and make sure that everything is right. Good flow from lift pump and return line is not obstructed, (shut off). air flow is good, cranking speed of engine is correct. If all of these are good and you have fuel at injectors the engine should run. If not, I suggest you leave it till you can get a mechanic to troubleshoot the problem. Also would suggest attempting to do all this with the fuel line to the lift pump placed in a 5 gallon pail or jerry can to eliminate any potential problems upstream such as Racor filtres or plugged fuel lines from the tank. If the engine does start up with the fuel from the pail then look upstream for further problems.

By the way the injectors are opened on this engine by fuel pressure from the injector pump. This is why the engine won't run with air in the system as the air is compressible and the pressure in the fuel line may not get high enough to open the injector. Newer style common rail injector systems work a little differently but not likely you will see many of these engines on boats for a while.

Good luck.
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Old 21-02-2014, 09:34   #137
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You use the lift pump to bleed the air from the injector pump. There are 3 ports on the the injector pump that must be bled in sequence. This is done "after" bleeding the primary filter.
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Old 21-02-2014, 10:09   #138
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Once the injector pump port are not bubbling, I use a jumper at the starter and start with the front injector. Quite often the engine will start while bleeding the third injector.

I have seen one of the check valves in the lift pump come unseated and the engine run fine depending on the diesel tank level. A syphon effect but the engine might starve for fuel at heavy loads.

Reseating the valve with a socket and ball peen hammer fixed a squirrelly acting engine.
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Old 21-02-2014, 12:53   #139
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

The little squeeze bulb pump trick only works to show you where there are leaks between your tank and your injector pump. From injector pump to injectors has to be bled by spinning the engine as has been said before.

Be very careful not to crank the engine for lengthy periods of time because that will get your starter very hot. Just long enough to bleed the fuel from the pump to the injector in one cylinder. Let it rest then bleed the next cylinder.

You have been trying to bleed the system so do you have a friend who is on the starter button?

If you are alone and don't have a remote starter button in the engine compartment then you are not bleeding the injector lines correctly and that's probably why the engine will not start.
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Old 21-02-2014, 13:21   #140
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Im putting my engine back together now and just bled the injector pump. It took a lot of pumping before I got free flowing fuel with no bubbles. I had the feed lines off and bled them to the pump by filling up a clear pint jar with the line disconnected, just to make sure anything that might have got in the line when it was disassembled would flush out. Just saying, it took a lot of pumps to get fresh clean fuel to fill the pump and expel all the air. It probably would take more if i was clearing the whole system after changing filters. Fuel lift pump is 3 months new. It would be easy to underestimate how much fuel you have to run through the system to get all the air out.
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Old 21-02-2014, 17:21   #141
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Firstly. Thanks for spending the time to reply here. The response is great and very much appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsanta View Post
The little lever on the fuel pump will only move fuel to the injector pump and not through it. You need to crank the engine to move fuel through the injector pump to the injectors.
I dont know what type of filter you use but next time prefill it with fuel to help eliminate air. You said that you had good flow to two injectors and one was bubbly (Dribled while being bled). You still have air in the system.. It will not start with any air in it. If it was mine I would do the following.
Turn your intake raw water off Allsready done.
Crack the nut at one injector and crank the motor till you get a nice stream of diesel. You have alot of air in the system and you may have to do this awhile. Then do the same for the other injectors. Dont stop with the first squirt keep cranking, you have alot of air to move out. The problem with air is that it compresses and wont pop the injectors open to inject the cylinders with fuel. You must remove the air. This should only take 5 minutes. Make sure you have a good flow no bubbly. It was running fine before you changed the filters it should run. You will make a mess but you need to flow alot of fuel.


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I have good consistent fuel spurting out of all injectors when bleeding, have cranked with them all open and all spurting diesel then closed each one while stil cranking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsanta View Post
You wont get fuel through the injector pump with a hand pump.it will only pull fuel through the filter and to the injector pump and if you get the air out of the fuel lines thats a good thing but it still wont clear the injector pump and injectors. Starting to sound like I may not be bleeding the injector pump properly? I an prety shore I am bleeding the injectors correctly.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsanta View Post
My racor filter has to have the fuel pump after the filter so it works on a vacume the fuel is being sucked through the filter not pushing the fuel and putting pressure into the filter.
When we first replaced the filters I used e very large seringe looking device(used to to extract oils from gearboxes ect) hooked up just before the banjo fitting at the IP inlet and sucked fuel all the way through both filters and lift pumps. This was the method we used to make shore both of the filters were full and hopefully air free.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by undercutter View Post
The lift pump is also activated mechanically inside the engine. This means that the pumped can be stroked depending on the position of the lob on the cam and if so, the hand lever may not actually do anything. Sometimes you have to turn the engine over either mannually or with the starter just a little bit until the pump is no longer stroked by the lobe and then the hand lever will work. Usually when there is air in the fuel line before the injector pump the lever will be harder to stroke than when the fuel lines are fully primed. i.e it gets easier once all the air is out of the fuel lines. Once you hit this point the fuel is returned through the return line to the tank(s).

As has been said before, a diesel engine only requires fuel, air and compression to run. So you must be missing one of these. You could have a sticky shutoff solenoid, a bad lift pump, etc. One way to check the lift pump is to crack one of the fuel filtres and work the pump manually. You should be able to pump a nice flow out of the fuel filter with the lift pump by hand. Tighten the filtres and crack the fuel line to the injection pump or loosen the bleeder screw if you know where it is. Pump the hand lever on the lift pump till you get a good flow of fuel and tighten the line or screw while continuing to pump the lever. Once this is done you can then start to crack the injectors one at a time while cranking the starter until the engine is running however it should not take more than 2 injectors to get the engine to run. Sometimes it will idle rough until all the injectors are bled but usually not.

From your original post regarding the engine revs my best guess would be that you have a fuel restriction problem. This could be likely caused by the shutdown solenoid. Other possible problems are screens, weak lift pump, etc. You can measure the rate of return fuel once the engine is running to determine whether there is sufficient fuel flow as per information from Perkins. I believe someone else also posted this suggestion. I have a cut off solonoid which is working fine, as I am recieving plenty of fuel past the Injection pump. I am certain I have a problem within the governor that is restricting the revs. I am slowly understanding more about how it works and am thinking the lerger spring may be broken, obstructed or dislodged.

You seem to be hung up on the injection pump whichI do not believe is your problem. These pumps are usually very reliable and I would not recommended touching anything on the pump and do not remove it as they have to be expertly installed to ensure proper timing. I think the IP is fine, Its the governor I am hung up on, Its is the cause of my original rev issues.

You will chase your tail forever unless you start from the beginning and make sure that everything is right. Good flow from lift pump and return line is not obstructed, (shut off). air flow is good, cranking speed of engine is correct. If all of these are good and you have fuel at injectors the engine should run. If not, I suggest you leave it till you can get a mechanic to troubleshoot the problem. Also would suggest attempting to do all this with the fuel line to the lift pump placed in a 5 gallon pail or jerry can to eliminate any potential problems upstream such as Racor filtres or plugged fuel lines from the tank. If the engine does start up with the fuel from the pail then look upstream for further problems.Yes. I will go back to square one and work through everything. One thing thats playing on my mind. When we originally sucked the fuel through the filters. There was some resistance. Could I have damaged the filter or filters by sucking and not pumping through? But, I am still getting plenty of fuel to the IP so its probably no an issue.

By the way the injectors are opened on this engine by fuel pressure from the injector pump. This is why the engine won't run with air in the system as the air is compressible and the pressure in the fuel line may not get high enough to open the injector. Newer style common rail injector systems work a little differently but not likely you will see many of these engines on boats for a while.

Good luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
You use the lift pump to bleed the air from the injector pump. There are 3 ports on the the injector pump that must be bled in sequence. This is done "after" bleeding the primary filter.
I used it to bleed air through to the inlet banjo fitting and then cranked snd bled from the injectors. Am I missing some additional bleed points on the injector pump?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
The little squeeze bulb pump trick only works to show you where there are leaks between your tank and your injector pump. From injector pump to injectors has to be bled by spinning the engine as has been said before.

Be very careful not to crank the engine for lengthy periods of time because that will get your starter very hot. Just long enough to bleed the fuel from the pump to the injector in one cylinder. Let it rest then bleed the next cylinder.

You have been trying to bleed the system so do you have a friend who is on the starter button? Always.

If you are alone and don't have a remote starter button in the engine compartment then you are not bleeding the injector lines correctly and that's probably why the engine will not start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forsailbyowner View Post
Im putting my engine back together now and just bled the injector pump. It took a lot of pumping before I got free flowing fuel with no bubbles. I had the feed lines off and bled them to the pump by filling up a clear pint jar with the line disconnected, just to make sure anything that might have got in the line when it was disassembled would flush out. Just saying, it took a lot of pumps to get fresh clean fuel to fill the pump and expel all the air. It probably would take more if i was clearing the whole system after changing filters. Fuel lift pump is 3 months new. It would be easy to underestimate how much fuel you have to run through the system to get all the air out.
Sucked it through with giant seringe.
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Old 21-02-2014, 17:27   #142
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

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Originally Posted by Oceanride007 View Post
I don't understand why he thinks it important, that last image has the speeder control in different position and the top of Fuel pump is red quite different from earlier image, whats happened there, Can you answer my above questions.
Just a quick update. That image looked different because we nocked some paint off as we had a go at loosning the bolt to bleed in this location but chikened out when we saw the whole thing come slightly unseated, no harm done and no leaks since.
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Old 21-02-2014, 17:37   #143
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

I have put together some pics of my fuel system and how I bled it. See if you can spot obviouse mistakes or sugest better ways.
Click image for larger version

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ID:	76534I did not use A or B sucked it through instead and we get plenty of fuel through to the IP.

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ID:	76535Just confirming. Is C the bleed bolt
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Old 21-02-2014, 17:43   #144
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Just off hand. Does anyone know what the standard fuel hose diameters are for this engine? Seem to prety standard.
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Old 21-02-2014, 17:58   #145
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Quote:
Originally Posted by undercutter View Post
The lift pump is also activated mechanically inside the engine. This means that the pumped can be stroked depending on the position of the lob on the cam and if so, the hand lever may not actually do anything. Sometimes you have to turn the engine over either mannually or with the starter just a little bit until the pump is no longer stroked by the lobe and then the hand lever will work. Usually when there is air in the fuel line before the injector pump the lever will be harder to stroke than when the fuel lines are fully primed. i.e it gets easier once all the air is out of the fuel lines. Once you hit this point the fuel is returned through the return line to the tank(s).

As has been said before, a diesel engine only requires fuel, air and compression to run. So you must be missing one of these. You could have a sticky shutoff solenoid, a bad lift pump, etc. One way to check the lift pump is to crack one of the fuel filtres and work the pump manually. You should be able to pump a nice flow out of the fuel filter with the lift pump by hand. Tighten the filtres and crack the fuel line to the injection pump or loosen the bleeder screw if you know where it is. Pump the hand lever on the lift pump till you get a good flow of fuel and tighten the line or screw while continuing to pump the lever. Once this is done you can then start to crack the injectors one at a time while cranking the starter until the engine is running however it should not take more than 2 injectors to get the engine to run. Sometimes it will idle rough until all the injectors are bled but usually not.

From your original post regarding the engine revs my best guess would be that you have a fuel restriction problem. This could be likely caused by the shutdown solenoid. Other possible problems are screens, weak lift pump, etc. You can measure the rate of return fuel once the engine is running to determine whether there is sufficient fuel flow as per information from Perkins. I believe someone else also posted this suggestion.

You seem to be hung up on the injection pump whichI do not believe is your problem. These pumps are usually very reliable and I would not recommended touching anything on the pump and do not remove it as they have to be expertly installed to ensure proper timing.

You will chase your tail forever unless you start from the beginning and make sure that everything is right. Good flow from lift pump and return line is not obstructed, (shut off). air flow is good, cranking speed of engine is correct. If all of these are good and you have fuel at injectors the engine should run. If not, I suggest you leave it till you can get a mechanic to troubleshoot the problem. Also would suggest attempting to do all this with the fuel line to the lift pump placed in a 5 gallon pail or jerry can to eliminate any potential problems upstream such as Racor filtres or plugged fuel lines from the tank. If the engine does start up with the fuel from the pail then look upstream for further problems.

By the way the injectors are opened on this engine by fuel pressure from the injector pump. This is why the engine won't run with air in the system as the air is compressible and the pressure in the fuel line may not get high enough to open the injector. Newer style common rail injector systems work a little differently but not likely you will see many of these engines on boats for a while.

Good luck.
I recently had a baffling "low rev " problema on my new to me 42ft Brewer 12.8 with a yanmar 75hp turbo. One tank is lower than the other and when we switched tanks in middle of hard open sea run the rpms dropped immediately from 3200 to 2400! upon close inspection of the fuel line leading to the engine the main line was ribboned or flattened out causing a major constriction in the line - the tank we switched to is about 4ft lower than the tank we had been running on-- this increased suction due to increased 'head' flattened out the line! Upon changing the line we discovered that the line was not a marine fuel line at all -probably from a cars windshield wiper washer!!! Well we changed to a marine rated line and all work fine now....
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Old 21-02-2014, 18:21   #146
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

This should narrow it down lol.




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Old 21-02-2014, 18:27   #147
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoohaa View Post
Just off hand. Does anyone know what the standard fuel hose diameters are for this engine? Seem to prety standard.

all the lines on mine are 1/4" hard lines, measured on the outside, this is on the feed lines so anything larger than or equal to 1/4" hose should suffice. This is from the filter to injection pump. from the tank to and thru filters is 3/8"
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Old 21-02-2014, 19:33   #148
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

I have lost track of what has been tried.

New filters caused air in fuel injection system?

Did the air get purged with fuel pump lever?

Is it possible to observe the fuel flow from the return line for removal of bubbles while working the fuel pump lever?

Have filters and fuel lines been checked to make sure no air is getting into the system?

Does the diesel fuel look dark from water contamination, biological growths and debris, that is what does the return flow to diesel tank look like, or if you have Racor with glass bowl, what does that show? Or, what does the diesel look like if you put a hose into the bottom of the diesel tank and suck a sample out of there. If there is a straight shot through the fuel filler tube into the tank, you could perhaps get a sample out that way?

Is there fuel at injectors?

Is there still a problem with RPM not exceeding 1900?

Have you replaced the hoses because these are hard and brittle, or soft and rotted? Are any hoses wet with diesel?

And, what did I leave out that's a good suggestion?
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Old 21-02-2014, 20:11   #149
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

I have a 1985 Perkins 4-108 that I've bled numerous times over the years. I use the lift pump to prime the system and there is one fitting on the injector pump that is loosen and as I pump on the lift pump bubbles issue forth until a solid stream flows and then the fitting is tighten. I did not notice that fitting on your IP and suspect that your engine is older. Mine is rated a 3600 rpm continuous. I then crack one injector and go topside to start the engine with half throttle. It will usually start and then I shut down quickly and retighten the loosen banjo. The manual has additional steps, but as long as I'm getting the air purged, I'm happy. I wonder if by introducting air on the low pressure side of the IP pump when I change the filters, is there a need to crack the injector on the high pressure side considering that the air has been purged from the injector pump?
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Old 21-02-2014, 20:11   #150
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Re: 50hp Perkins won't rev past 1900rpm

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Originally Posted by westwinds View Post
I have lost track of what has been tried.

New filters caused air in fuel injection system?YES

Did the air get purged with fuel pump lever?Originally fuel was sucked through using a very large seringe just before the IP inlet which filled filters and should have removed the air from them.

Is it possible to observe the fuel flow from the return line for removal of bubbles while working the fuel pump lever? I am not aware of any return line? But it is possable to observe the fuel being pumped if you crack the banjo fitting at the IP inlet.

Have filters and fuel lines been checked to make sure no air is getting into the system?Yes. But is possably the only explaination for it not starting so am going to start from scratch and check again.
Looking at the picture of my injection pump (not the injectors), what is the correct way to bleed it?

Does the diesel fuel look dark from water contamination, biological growths and debris, that is what does the return flow to diesel tank look like, or if you have Racor with glass bowl, what does that show? Or, what does the diesel look like if you put a hose into the bottom of the diesel tank and suck a sample out of there. If there is a straight shot through the fuel filler tube into the tank, you could perhaps get a sample out that way?The diesel is clean. Have ruled that out.

Is there fuel at injectors??

Is there still a problem with RPM not exceeding 1900?Yes

Have you replaced the hoses because these are hard and brittle, or soft and rotted? Are any hoses wet with diesel?Havn't replaced any hoses yet but they apear in good condition. One of the pictures shows a hose connection to the first filter. It apears damp. I have cut that one and rejoined it but it didn't make any diff.

And, what did I leave out that's a good suggestion?
aaaaa
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