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Old 11-01-2015, 10:24   #16
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Re: 4 cycle outboard fuel

Options to deal with the water:
Treat and release or dispose via hazardous liquid recovery (oil reclaim)
1)Treat with oleophinlic absorbent material, Diapers or Charcoal filter and discharge water (just like most bilge water these days) and dispose of solids as oily waste.
2)Deposit at collection sites that take oily waste if not treated.
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Old 11-01-2015, 11:11   #17
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Re: 4 cycle outboard fuel

I thought maybe put it in a shallow pan and let it evaporate, but didn't know.


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Old 11-01-2015, 13:06   #18
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Re: 4 cycle outboard fuel

Please understand, I am not bragging when I make this statement, I just want everyone to know where I am coming from when I state my opinions. I am an engineer. I was a nuclear engineer for six years (Navy Vet and a certified fuel and oil tester for the Navy) then a mechanical engineer for 6 years. I am just hoping this will show that I know how to use the scientific method to prove or disprove theorems. I do not go on blind faith, I have trust issues. I will test whatever someone says to be fact. So, sorry for the long post.

I have a lot of small engines; from lawnmowers, to chainsaws, to boat motors. Some are 2-cycle and some are 4-cycle. Gasohol causes trouble with some and runs fine in others. The worst is my chainsaw. It only runs on premium gasohol or regular gasoline. My boat motor has trouble every year. The same issue every time. The beginning of the season it is fine, but by the end it randomly stalls out and/or won't start. I am like my folks with the small motor, the 6 gal tank lasts an entire season so the gas goes bad.

I just had a discussion with one of the only small engine mechanics I trust on this issue this week. (Snowblower issues here in Chicago) He recommends running every small engine dry when you are done. Don't drain the carb, drain the tank! That is important. Like someone posted earlier, it you drain the carb the remaining liquid could evaporate onto the jets, needle, etc. If you drain the tank and then run the motor dry, the engine vacuum will suck most of the fuel out of the carb and leave it much cleaner.

We also discussed that fuel in a can stuff. He said it does work great and will eliminate all of the gasohol problems, but it costs $12 a liter here. I asked "Well, isn't that basically the same as white gas". He looked like a kid that just got caught stealing cookies from the cookie jar. He said yes, it's pretty much the same. I knew the answer before I asked. I just wanted to see what he said. White gas is a bit cheaper, too. The difference between gasohol, gasoline, the can stuff and white gas is white gas does not have any fuel additives for burning in an engine. The others have cleaners for anti-fouling, lubricators for cylinders and pistons, etc. If you use white gas in a motor, you may need to add something. I have used transmission fluid. That has gobs of additives. You would mix it like you mix oil for a 2-cycle engine. A little bit goes a long way.

As for driving a long way to get a stockpile of gasoline for your small motors, well I do it. It is worth it. I don't go out of my way. I just keep a bunch of empty cans. When I am going to be driving through an area with gasoline, I bring my cans. I only have to drive a few counties over to get it, so it is not that big of a deal. If I can't, I just fill the cans with premium and add Seafoam. Stabil is a joke. Even my mechanic won't use it. It does function like it says. It suspends water in fuel for a period of time. The problem is, what about the fuel that doesn't get the full affect? It goes bad and goes through your carb. Now you get deposits and fouling. Seafoam not only does what Stabil does, but has cleaners that break up the deposits and fouling. Nothing works perfect, but I feel Seafoam is the best legally available today. I say that because I have some carb cleaner from 10 years ago. You spray it on anything, jets, needles, spark plugs, whatever and within 30 minutes all of the fuel deposits and carbon buildup is gone. No scrubbing is required. It works awesome. The EPA outlawed it.

If you are still with me, here is the last thing. Just a few comparisons to oversimplify things.

White gas=Coleman fuel=100% pure highest grade unleaded gasoline
White gas+additives=that fuel in a can stuff.
White gas that is not pure (think alcohol you drink as in 80 proof)+additives=gasoline at the pump at varying octane levels
Gasoline+ethanol (normally 10%)=Gasohol (Gas stations call it gasoline, but it's not the same)
Gasoline+85% ethanol=E85 (Worthless stuff)
Race fuel=White gas+additives+lead to increase the octane
or =Unleaded pump gas+lead to increase the octane
AvGas (Aviation fuel)=Gasoline, yep that's it
or =Gasoline+lead, yep that's it too
For you diesel types:
Diesel is just extremely low quality gasoline. Gasoline starts off as diesel and is just refined more by "cracking". (I know it's an oversimplification)
Jet fuel (JP-5 for you military buffs)=Pure highest grade diesel, it's the white gas of diesel
As a side note, Consumer Reports just did a diesel study. They found the 5% biodiesel got the best economy and 1/4 mile time over pure diesel and higher biodiesel concentrations. Who knew?
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Old 11-01-2015, 14:09   #19
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Re: 4 cycle outboard fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadrider77 View Post
Please understand, I am not bragging when I make this statement, I just want everyone to know where I am coming from when I state my opinions. I am an engineer. I was a nuclear engineer for six years (Navy Vet and a certified fuel and oil tester for the Navy) then a mechanical engineer for 6 years. I am just hoping this will show that I know how to use the scientific method to prove or disprove theorems. I do not go on blind faith, I have trust issues. I will test whatever someone says to be fact. So, sorry for the long post.

I have a lot of small engines; from lawnmowers, to chainsaws, to boat motors. Some are 2-cycle and some are 4-cycle. Gasohol causes trouble with some and runs fine in others. The worst is my chainsaw. It only runs on premium gasohol or regular gasoline. My boat motor has trouble every year. The same issue every time. The beginning of the season it is fine, but by the end it randomly stalls out and/or won't start. I am like my folks with the small motor, the 6 gal tank lasts an entire season so the gas goes bad.

I just had a discussion with one of the only small engine mechanics I trust on this issue this week. (Snowblower issues here in Chicago) He recommends running every small engine dry when you are done. Don't drain the carb, drain the tank! That is important. Like someone posted earlier, it you drain the carb the remaining liquid could evaporate onto the jets, needle, etc. If you drain the tank and then run the motor dry, the engine vacuum will suck most of the fuel out of the carb and leave it much cleaner.

We also discussed that fuel in a can stuff. He said it does work great and will eliminate all of the gasohol problems, but it costs $12 a liter here. I asked "Well, isn't that basically the same as white gas". He looked like a kid that just got caught stealing cookies from the cookie jar. He said yes, it's pretty much the same. I knew the answer before I asked. I just wanted to see what he said. White gas is a bit cheaper, too. The difference between gasohol, gasoline, the can stuff and white gas is white gas does not have any fuel additives for burning in an engine. The others have cleaners for anti-fouling, lubricators for cylinders and pistons, etc. If you use white gas in a motor, you may need to add something. I have used transmission fluid. That has gobs of additives. You would mix it like you mix oil for a 2-cycle engine. A little bit goes a long way.

As for driving a long way to get a stockpile of gasoline for your small motors, well I do it. It is worth it. I don't go out of my way. I just keep a bunch of empty cans. When I am going to be driving through an area with gasoline, I bring my cans. I only have to drive a few counties over to get it, so it is not that big of a deal. If I can't, I just fill the cans with premium and add Seafoam. Stabil is a joke. Even my mechanic won't use it. It does function like it says. It suspends water in fuel for a period of time. The problem is, what about the fuel that doesn't get the full affect? It goes bad and goes through your carb. Now you get deposits and fouling. Seafoam not only does what Stabil does, but has cleaners that break up the deposits and fouling. Nothing works perfect, but I feel Seafoam is the best legally available today. I say that because I have some carb cleaner from 10 years ago. You spray it on anything, jets, needles, spark plugs, whatever and within 30 minutes all of the fuel deposits and carbon buildup is gone. No scrubbing is required. It works awesome. The EPA outlawed it.

If you are still with me, here is the last thing. Just a few comparisons to oversimplify things.

White gas=Coleman fuel=100% pure highest grade unleaded gasoline
White gas+additives=that fuel in a can stuff.
White gas that is not pure (think alcohol you drink as in 80 proof)+additives=gasoline at the pump at varying octane levels
Gasoline+ethanol (normally 10%)=Gasohol (Gas stations call it gasoline, but it's not the same)
Gasoline+85% ethanol=E85 (Worthless stuff)
Race fuel=White gas+additives+lead to increase the octane
or =Unleaded pump gas+lead to increase the octane
AvGas (Aviation fuel)=Gasoline, yep that's it
or =Gasoline+lead, yep that's it too
For you diesel types:
Diesel is just extremely low quality gasoline. Gasoline starts off as diesel and is just refined more by "cracking". (I know it's an oversimplification)
Jet fuel (JP-5 for you military buffs)=Pure highest grade diesel, it's the white gas of diesel
As a side note, Consumer Reports just did a diesel study. They found the 5% biodiesel got the best economy and 1/4 mile time over pure diesel and higher biodiesel concentrations. Who knew?
I hadn't heard the term white gas in years.
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Old 11-01-2015, 14:58   #20
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Re: 4 cycle outboard fuel

Coleman fuel has an octane of ~ 50-55. It is not high grade gasoline, it is just different. I wouldn't try that in a outboard at high load unless you really want to scorch the valves. It can be used in very low compression engines, such as model aircraft.

Yes, ATF has additives, but they are not at all the same ones we put in gasoline.

Stabil has no water suspending or phase separation delaying activity (tests by independent labs). Neither does Seafoam or any other common additive. I've tested most of them using ASTM method. They don't quote a test method or result, do they? What the better additive can do is eliminate aluminum corrosion, which is the leading cause of ethanol fouling. Closing the vent EVERY TIME will also help keep water out of the fuel, which will reduce corrosion (dry e10 does not corrode--e10 with 0.1-0.3% water does).

And don't try to make the gasoline in the tank last all season. Run the engine. Very few sail outboards are ever worn out, they die of corrosion and disuse.
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Old 11-01-2015, 15:12   #21
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4 cycle outboard fuel

Coleman fuel is Naptha I believe, not gasoline, it is as stated very low octane, you will learn about detonation of you try that stuff.
White gas is the name for what used to be Amaco premium fuel back when premium was also called Ethyl.
All gasoline I know of has color added, Aircraft 80 octane was red, 100LL is blue and the old real high Octane stuff 130 I think was Purple, only 100LL available now
FWIW aviation octane is not the same as car pump gas, derived at different ways.
JP5 or Jet-A is essentially high grade kerosens, pretty much the same as #1 Diesel.
You can usually find Sunoco race gas if you look without too much difficulty, but there is about as many kinds of racing fuel as there is drinking alcohol.

I do agree about emptying the tank and running one dry though.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_gas Wikipedias opinion on what white gas is, and when I was a kid, we used white gas, not Coleman fuel in stoves and lanterns.


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Old 11-01-2015, 15:17   #22
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Re: 4 cycle outboard fuel

Link to Sunoco race gas, I had forgot about that, I would burn it before I burned that $12 a Liter stuff. Although I'm sure it isn't cheap either
http://www.racegas.com/fuelfinder


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Old 11-01-2015, 17:46   #23
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Re: 4 cycle outboard fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Link to Sunoco race gas, I had forgot about that, I would burn it before I burned that $12 a Liter stuff. Although I'm sure it isn't cheap either
http://www.racegas.com/fuelfinder


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I paid $67 for five gallons of it at my local Ace Hardware last October. We used it when winterizing the outboards. Expensive, but nothing compared to the mechanics' bills for two outboards with fuel problems last year.


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Old 11-01-2015, 17:54   #24
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Re: 4 cycle outboard fuel

You are right about Coleman fuel or white gas not being high grade gasoline. I admit I chose the wrong word. I should have chosen to use "pure" instead. It is pure gasoline before additives are introduced to raise the octane level plus all the cleaners and stuff like that. As far as not using it, I haven't used it in a high compression engine, but I know it runs flawless in an 8:1 compression motor.

I don't want people to get the impression I was advocating using it in large quantities in large engines either. But, when you are using a gallon a month like I do, I haven't found an issue in 3 years.

This is no different than when you go to an indoor toy show. These are the ones with boats, ATV's, things like that. What do you think they run in those motors to be able to run them inside and not asphyxiate everyone? I know one company that uses off the shelf booze. I was surprised to fine out it was a dark liquor, not a clear one like vodka or rum. The small engines (and yes lower compression ones) run fine off the lower octane liquor, but without anti-fouling and lubrication additives the engines won't last long.
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