Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-02-2016, 20:24   #31
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
If you are going to do this put everything in writing and have an escape plan.

............

..............
It sounds litigious but the more you settle up front, the less chances for mistaken assumptions (ie: Bill used to have a summer job washing and waxing boats, so we'll assume Bill will handle that task.)
Very good advice. The OP originally asked about boats, but the "end game" is essential to deal with up front.

To the OP, if you do a Google site search on "partnerships" you can read all the details.

Good luck.
__________________

__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2016, 21:50   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tradrockrat View Post
Thanks for the replies so far! I'm very curious to hear more. While we are still just learning about Cats (I've been a small monohull sailor my whole life) The consensus between the four of us is 40+ as well.


Of course the debates around the planning table have already started over Lagoon vs. Leopard. vs. Catana - and we've never been on any of them!
I'm also planning on retiring on a catamaran, but just as a couple. I'm no expert on catamarans or boating, but I do have some experience being crammed into a sub with 120 other guys. When you're crammed into a small space, there's no way to stretch the hull, or legally get rid of bodies, so the best thing to do is get the biggest you think you can handle or can afford and you can't go wrong. I'm looking at a 47' catamaran with 4 staterooms and 4 heads, just to have enough room for us and possible guests. I can always convert the 4th stateroom and head to a workshop and laundry room or whatever, but you can't stretch a 38' hull into a 45' hull. Plus from what I've read, the longer the hulls, the smoother and faster the cat (all else being equal.) I've seen a few 45' cats that got 2' added to the sugar scoops just for that reason. Every time you buy and sell, someone gets a commission. If boat brokers are anything like real estate agents - well don't get me started on them or used car salesmen.

I've used that philosophy in everything and I've been very happy. I do a lot of research, decide which is best based on suitability for purpose then buy a used one that looks like new for a fraction of the original price. Some people start small and work their way up. I prefer to just buy the best I can get the first time around.

For an example of someone who is sailing a 50' St Francis cat with just his GF, do a web search for Hugh Howey and Wayfinder. He has a few videos out about his newly built cat and all of the little features that he had them custom build for him. Lots of great ideas and truly a beautiful boat. A lot of those ideas I'm going to incorporate and retrofit myself, as well as a lot of my own ideas (wifi media system as well as navigation data to laptops and TVs via wifi) and so on.

Good luck!
__________________

__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-02-2016, 22:21   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

When it does come time to pick a brand of boat, the most important consideration for me was safety, reliability, comfort and factory support, in that order. I'm sure I forgot some factors, like sailing ability, but I still think safety and factory support still rank higher.

The answers you will receive on a forum like this from current owners will be partially tinged with a desire not to admit faults with their very expensive boat. Sure, some people may be completely honest (like the guy who warned everyone about spending $1M on a Lagoon 52 only to get a steaming pile of leaking fiberglass with 2 non running engines and no working navigation equipment and a great big F.U. from Lagoon as soon as his final check cleared) but there were even more cheerleaders who supported Lagoon's behavior, claiming that he bought the thing from a broker, who was entirely responsible for fixing it, even though his name isn't on the side and he didn't build it. Weird way of doing business, if you ask me.

Well, there are other brands (most, it seems) who don't do business like that. What I did was joined a couple of different brands of catamaran owner's groups to see what REALLY is good/bad or ugly about each brand. On those email lists, owners candidly ask each other for help locating parts, fixing common problems, etc. So what I'm seeing in these owners groups is what is truly the high failure items within that brand, broken down by specific model and even different years of mfr. I've heard of brands of cats prone to osmosis blistering or delamination or poor hull bonding or saildrive problems or poorly sealed salon windows or leaking fuel tanks, etc.

Nobody makes a perfect boat (or car or anything) but when you see what the owners are fixing or not fixing, you get to choose which kinds of problems you can easily deal with and which ones are definite deal killers. I'm all for safety, simplicity, reliability, heavy duty construction and good factory support. Some people seem to spend most of their time affecting expensive repairs in remote locations, while others sail around the world enjoying the life and the sailing experience. I don't think it's luck, I think it's all a matter of selecting a well built, proven design.
__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 20:49   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 15
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

I researched on 40ft cruising cats, and narrowed down to the new Fountaine Pajot LUCIA 40 launched in Paris in Dec 2015. My view was it should perform better coz it has a larger sail / weight ration than other brands. In terms of comfort, it also has a separate head and spacious shower in the owner cabin (3 cabin version). Do let me know if u like to see the photos and video I took at the Paris Yacht Show
__________________
Yong SC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2016, 22:20   #35
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,707
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

The Lucia 40 isn't actually a "40ft cruising cat" . It's more like a 38ft curising cat, It is only 38.5 ft LOA
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 03:03   #36
TOT
Registered User
 
TOT's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Singapore
Boat: Lagoon 450
Posts: 273
Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
When it does come time to pick a brand of boat, the most important consideration for me was safety, reliability, comfort and factory support, in that order. I'm sure I forgot some factors, like sailing ability, but I still think safety and factory support still rank higher.

The answers you will receive on a forum like this from current owners will be partially tinged with a desire not to admit faults with their very expensive boat. Sure, some people may be completely honest (like the guy who warned everyone about spending $1M on a Lagoon 52 only to get a steaming pile of leaking fiberglass with 2 non running engines and no working navigation equipment and a great big F.U. from Lagoon as soon as his final check cleared) but there were even more cheerleaders who supported Lagoon's behavior, claiming that he bought the thing from a broker, who was entirely responsible for fixing it, even though his name isn't on the side and he didn't build it. Weird way of doing business, if you ask me.

Well, there are other brands (most, it seems) who don't do business like that. What I did was joined a couple of different brands of catamaran owner's groups to see what REALLY is good/bad or ugly about each brand. On those email lists, owners candidly ask each other for help locating parts, fixing common problems, etc. So what I'm seeing in these owners groups is what is truly the high failure items within that brand, broken down by specific model and even different years of mfr. I've heard of brands of cats prone to osmosis blistering or delamination or poor hull bonding or saildrive problems or poorly sealed salon windows or leaking fuel tanks, etc.

Nobody makes a perfect boat (or car or anything) but when you see what the owners are fixing or not fixing, you get to choose which kinds of problems you can easily deal with and which ones are definite deal killers. I'm all for safety, simplicity, reliability, heavy duty construction and good factory support. Some people seem to spend most of their time affecting expensive repairs in remote locations, while others sail around the world enjoying the life and the sailing experience. I don't think it's luck, I think it's all a matter of selecting a well built, proven design.

Buddy if you don't think the majority of people that own boats on this forum write the truth, be it good or bad then why read it or do you just write to amuse yourself.

I know a few of the Lagoon owners that write and respond on this forum and have had good service and experience with their AGENTS because we buy from agents, the story you listed l felt was due to very poor focus at handover by both the owner and the agent as l did not complete my final payment until the boat was in the water.

PS - And what boat do you own ?


SV TOT
Wayne 😃
__________________
TOT Team
TOT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 03:17   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,867
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

If you go to an owners site, take what you read with a huge grain of salt. It often overrepresents issues as people rarely post that nothing broke and it was a quiet day on the water.

The result is popular boats will look bad because they have active sites with lots of comments about issues and boats with small production numbers will look better as there are fewer people to post about issues...also there is a critical mass thing where if there are too few owners the owner sites tend not to get much traffic so you don't get a lot of posts at all (good or bad).

Not saying you shouldn't check them out but be careful to understand what you are looking at.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 04:37   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOT View Post
Buddy if you don't think the majority of people that own boats on this forum write the truth, be it good or bad then why read it or do you just write to amuse yourself.



I know a few of the Lagoon owners that write and respond on this forum and have had good service and experience with their AGENTS because we buy from agents, the story you listed l felt was due to very poor focus at handover by both the owner and the agent as l did not complete my final payment until the boat was in the water.



PS - And what boat do you own ?





SV TOT

Wayne 😃






And here we go with an overly defensive owner because...



of the name on the side of his boat. Face the facts. The guy spent $1M, the boat has Lagoon on both sides, it had all of those problems and Lagoon was no help. Period. This is an example of an HONEST owner after blowing $1M.

Did any other Lagoon owner step forward and admit they had a similar experience? No, like you, they blamed the buyer or broker for all of the problems in getting help. I don't think that poor guy's experience was unique, yet to hear the replies in that thread, you'd think it was entirely his fault.





Here's what I see happening around here. Someone will post a specific question, like "Are there any brands of catamarans I should stay away from that might have major problems like osmosis or shoddy hull construction?" The OP will start getting unbiased answers from boat repair guys who have worked on all of the brands and seen a higher percentage of hull problems with a couple of brands. But the owners of those brands, who paid to have those repairs done, or knew of another owner who did, are never the ones to mention it.



However, if you go on the email group, you'll see threads asking for advice from other owners on how to deal with the problems endemic to their brand. Perhaps they are not members here, perhaps a different forum, perhaps no generic sailing forums. But they are owners of that brand, and they do ask for help from one another. The type of help they ask for will give you a clue as to what the owners are dealing with.



Take this thread for example. The OP is asking for advice. Not a single poster has come forward and said, "Don't buy XXX, I had (have) one and it was a big pile of crap." There has to be some out there, but who would willingly destroy their chances of selling it by publicly admitting how bad it is?



As for what brand of boat I own, I never said I owned a catamaran, I'm still 2 yrs into the 5-6 yr information gathering phase. So far, I like what I see, I'm just not seeing the info in the respective brand subforums.
__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 04:46   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
If you go to an owners site, take what you read with a huge grain of salt. It often overrepresents issues as people rarely post that nothing broke and it was a quiet day on the water.

The result is popular boats will look bad because they have active sites with lots of comments about issues and boats with small production numbers will look better as there are fewer people to post about issues...also there is a critical mass thing where if there are too few owners the owner sites tend not to get much traffic so you don't get a lot of posts at all (good or bad).

Not saying you shouldn't check them out but be careful to understand what you are looking at.
Good point, you have to keep in mind the number of that brand of boat sold vs the number of complaints.

I don't really look at the numbers of threads about specific problems, I look at what those problems are, how bad is that type of problem relative to other problems.

I don't want to deal with problematic sail drives (clutch cones or leaking seals always seem to be an issue) or poor hull construction leading to osmosis or weak spots, but other minor issues like updating electronics or refrigeration wouldn't bother me. Everyone has their preferences as to what is a major or minor problem, perhaps an occasional rudder post issue crops up, but one of the email list gurus has come up with a permanent fix for it, which I think is great. Again, I've never seen that discussed outside of the owner's email list.
__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 05:07   #40
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,707
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
Again, I've never seen that discussed outside of the owner's email list.
As a counterpoint, here's an owner being quite open on CF about a perceived design flaw in his choice of boat: Surprise when replacing galley sink top
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 05:34   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
As a counterpoint, here's an owner being quite open on CF about a perceived design flaw in his choice of boat: Surprise when replacing galley sink top
Please don't take partial quotes out of context. The part of my post that you quoted was in reference to the sentence just before it about the rudder post repair, which you left out.

I have acknowledged that there are those who will openly discuss their problems, like the example I gave about the Lagoon 52.

It just seems to me that when a poster starts a thread about "what brand of cat should I buy" (and don't go off thinking that I misinterpreted this thread as such) I've rarely, if ever, seen a current owner of brand X, Y or Z post in it saying, "Don't buy the same one I bought, I've had nothing but problems with 1, 2 , and 3."

It's pretty much human nature about very expensive purchases.
__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 05:42   #42
TOT
Registered User
 
TOT's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Singapore
Boat: Lagoon 450
Posts: 273
Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
And here we go with an overly defensive owner because...



of the name on the side of his boat. Face the facts. The guy spent $1M, the boat has Lagoon on both sides, it had all of those problems and Lagoon was no help. Period. This is an example of an HONEST owner after blowing $1M.

Did any other Lagoon owner step forward and admit they had a similar experience? No, like you, they blamed the buyer or broker for all of the problems in getting help. I don't think that poor guy's experience was unique, yet to hear the replies in that thread, you'd think it was entirely his fault.





Here's what I see happening around here. Someone will post a specific question, like "Are there any brands of catamarans I should stay away from that might have major problems like osmosis or shoddy hull construction?" The OP will start getting unbiased answers from boat repair guys who have worked on all of the brands and seen a higher percentage of hull problems with a couple of brands. But the owners of those brands, who paid to have those repairs done, or knew of another owner who did, are never the ones to mention it.



However, if you go on the email group, you'll see threads asking for advice from other owners on how to deal with the problems endemic to their brand. Perhaps they are not members here, perhaps a different forum, perhaps no generic sailing forums. But they are owners of that brand, and they do ask for help from one another. The type of help they ask for will give you a clue as to what the owners are dealing with.



Take this thread for example. The OP is asking for advice. Not a single poster has come forward and said, "Don't buy XXX, I had (have) one and it was a big pile of crap." There has to be some out there, but who would willingly destroy their chances of selling it by publicly admitting how bad it is?



As for what brand of boat I own, I never said I owned a catamaran, I'm still 2 yrs into the 5-6 yr information gathering phase. So far, I like what I see, I'm just not seeing the info in the respective brand subforums.

Maybe just maybe it's an owner that has found the boat to be everything they expected and even more and when an individual throws stones at something or some brand that based on my own personal experiences is totally unfair l will say so.

I don't think in today's day and age anyone can find every element to their own taste, would l have changed a few of the design elements in my boat (for sure l would have if l could have) but l was not purchasing a designer, one of a kind hand built boat l purchased what l felt was value for money.

I stand by that having sailed many miles and lived many days aboard.

Put your money where your mouth is because l did.


SV TOT
Wayne 😃
__________________
TOT Team
TOT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 05:58   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,026
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
If you go to an owners site, take what you read with a huge grain of salt. It often overrepresents issues as people rarely post that nothing broke and it was a quiet day on the water.

The result is popular boats will look bad because they have active sites with lots of comments about issues and boats with small production numbers will look better as there are fewer people to post about issues...also there is a critical mass thing where if there are too few owners the owner sites tend not to get much traffic so you don't get a lot of posts at all (good or bad).

Not saying you shouldn't check them out but be careful to understand what you are looking at.
Honest descriptions of problems are found on the owner's forums. The owners try to get solutions to their real problems.

On CF most people just try to defend their choice, and can't admit that certain boats models / brands do have specific problems. That could hurt resale value of their expensive toy.
__________________
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 06:33   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 258
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

Be sure to take some shorter cruises for a week or a month before full commitment.

Running a boat is not a democracy, and what you are contemplating has potential for an excellent psychological case study some day.....

“We did everything adults would do. What went wrong?”
William Golding, Lord of the Flies
__________________
paxfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2016, 08:00   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Austin, TX
Boat: McGregor Venture 25
Posts: 17
Re: Your choice for cruising with 4 adults?

I want to thank ALL of you for your comments and replies. I'm getting a lot out of this thread. I'd like to address three things said recently, if I may.

1. The four of us are creating a legal corporate entity that will own all boat(s) and equipment involved in this adventure - from day one. We are good friends, but we are not interested in destroying the friendship over the attempt. We will have a simple and agreed upon escape clause in the plan so that one couple may opt out if they decide to at any point in the process without destroying the other couples ability to adapt and go on as a crew of two (I AM semi retiring in 5 years, that's happening, so I WILL be cruising).

2. We have discussed at length over the last few days the need to commit to our yearly vacations as a 4 -some, and that they need to be charters in different areas of the world, on different Cats.

3. Finally - there seems to be a classic Forum discussion here between a few of you... umm... ahem....not to be a jerk, because I'm new here and I'd like to stay welcome, but... well... IT'S A FORUM. I take everything with a grain of salt, an eye towards bias, and I respect all of your opinions. Funny thing is, I ASKED for opinions and your personal bias in this thread. I really appreciate all of the replies, the concern, the doubt, the cheerleading, the advice, etc. , but as Mother would say, a few of you need to get a room...
__________________

__________________
tradrockrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Has Heavy-Weather Experience Influenced Your Choice of Boat? sneuman General Sailing Forum 120 03-03-2015 04:33
Am I Deserting My Young Adults? mbwoman Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 74 16-07-2014 20:42
Things You Left Off Your Boat by Choice Doodles General Sailing Forum 46 18-06-2010 18:54



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:50.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.