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Old 19-09-2014, 05:54   #31
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Just had these taken last Saturday. Have a bunch more on the blog. The cockpit is 4" higher on the underside than the bridgedeck.
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Old 19-09-2014, 05:59   #32
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Seem to only be able to add one pic per post?
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Old 19-09-2014, 06:00   #33
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

One more
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Old 19-09-2014, 08:09   #34
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

I posted this on another thread but happy to share lagoon 380 windward performance as well as slamming which is pretty much a non event but barra did a great job of explaining what you may expect. The thing about slamming is it's not a violent motion, just the effect of waves slapping against a big flat surface. Monos don't tend to have big flat surfaces so when the waves hit they are dispersed with less energy. The flat underside of a bridgdeck or the flat vertical sides of cat hulls make a bit more noise, like a drum skin, and usually only in a messed up sea where the peaks can slap up between the hulls.
As far as windward performance of the L380, our experience is similar to bara's. We would normally sail with the autopilot in wind vane mode and tweak it somwhere around 34 degrees off the wind. With true wind and leeway taken into consideration that equates to around 90 degree tacks. The following track was in 20k true, messy 1m or so swell and slight surface currents against us, but is pretty typical for what we generally expect to windward. Boat speed was around 7k more or less.Click image for larger version

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Old 19-09-2014, 08:15   #35
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Just for the record I just measured the L400 has 60cm bridge deck clearance at the stern, a little more forward and about 50cm under the very small nacelle. I think the L380 has a bit less clearance
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Old 20-09-2014, 19:33   #36
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grateful View Post
Barra,

Wow, that's some performance to weather!

Actually, I count the Catana boats as among the "modern production boats" with full headroom and galley up vs some of the frankly odd ball designs from Australia and the US West coast. I have to ask though, how did you like getting to and from, and sitting in that helm position in a very big following or beam sea off shore? That always seemed to me to be a wet, dangerous place to be unless you are just sailing around the bay or between islands.

I've never been on a Lagoon 450 (On paper they look heavy, under powered and, as you mention, have terrible windage.) I did spend some time and several thousand miles on a Lagoon 400 and was very impressed by it's performance.

(Kurt, if you're reading along, we sailed together on the University of Puget Sound sailing team and on that God-awful blue SJ 30 way back when - please don't take offense!)
Hi Grateful

Re the aft helms as previous threads have discussed they dont seem to be for everyone due to the sense of exposure to the seas but all I would say is dont knock em till youve tried em. Mono sailors seem to have less of an issue since most monos are aft helms.

People that knock them seem to forget there are 2 on a cat so one side or the other will have better shelter from wind, motion, waves or even sun.

On ours at least getting to them is just a step from the cockpit so I would say would be easier and safer than any flybridge design that Ive seen in bad sea state. Once there the motion would be better. Beam seas no problem - move to the other helm.

Re the large following seas the largest we've been in with this boat so far is only around 6 meters or 20 feet so take it for what its worth. The helm seat is around 6 feet from the stern and around 7 feet above the water. Even breaking waves did not climb more than 2 vertical feet up the stern stems so we are a long way from having any issues there. Like i said before we havnt even had slamming of the bridgedeck downwind which is over 5 feet lower than the helm and same distance back from the stems.

Psychologically someone might feel safer in the flybridge because your further from the water but in reality I think the kind of seastate you would need to get wave wash over the aft helms would be pooping a similar size flybridge cat as well. Just what that seastate is for this boat I dont know and hope i never will but it will be pretty extreme.

On the plus side in dangerous seas I feel Im far less likely to have steering issues due to the direct helm to rudder connection that is also doubled up from each helm. Personally that makes me feel safer than a more removed helm position when surfing the bigger swells as the scariest time ive had offshore was on another boat that lost steerage in 10m seas.
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Old 21-09-2014, 09:00   #37
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Catamaran Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Guys (and Gals), first off, thanks for all the input & opinions! There's FAR more good info & input than I'd ever expected to get... and by all means, feel free to keep it coming!

RKsailsolo, thanks for the tip. The same exact thought hit me at likely the same time you were typing it, & I was caffeinating for the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKsailsolo View Post
Good topic, having cat owners describe the condition when their boats start to bridge deck slam, but it's no doubt a sensitive one. In the spirit of learning and this series of Cruiser forums, maybe consider opening up this topic as a new one that is written in the manner that makes it "safer" to share their experience.
As to my statement which originally started this thread, I guess I wasn't totally clear at the outset in terms of what I might be wanting a cat for, purposes wise. So to clear that up a bit: I'd prefer a boat which isn't limited to coastal only or similar cruising.
And, honestly, it'd be nice to have something which could even handle high latitudes. However, I know that that's asking a LOT from a small to mid sized catamaran. Or so seems the prevailing wisdoms.

Still, since for the moment at least, I can pass on seeing icebergs, knock on wood: A boat that'll swallow up a good stock of cruising supplies-n-spares, food stores, & toys. While maintaining good performance, is ideally what I'd love.
That, and I come from a background with a LOT of racing (like tens of thousands of miles). So yeah, fixed keels, plus other anti-performance design factors are out, as are floating condo type designs etc. Even if that means a few design compromises when compared to the "norm", & or a bit of austerity here and there.
I mean hey, it is a cruising cat... that in & of itself, alone, is a BIG luxury feature. It's far more pleasant than sleeping on the weather rail in my drysuit (well, mostly).

I get what you guys are saying about being able to have a galley up configuration. Makes sense. And yeah, at the very least, I'm overdue to attend a boat show. Or... snag a pretty young siren, a few friends, & pick out a boat to rent for a short stint somewhere paradisical

As to super high helm stations, I'm still not convinced on that one. I've been up the spar too many times (underway) for someone to tell me that more height doesn't equal more motion (a LOT more).
I'm having trouble swallowing the comments that elevated helm stations aren't THAT high. I mean how far's your heine from the water when you're perched in one? Two meters, 3m...?
Not to be mean, but to me, some of them are literally on par with flying bridges. Which makes me wonder that they don't come with Recaro's & 5-point seatbelts to keep you in place for when Neptune's throwing a tantrum.

Seriously though, how tough are they to climb into/onto & to stay there when it's blowing 40 & the waves are peaking somewhere between the first & second set of spreaders?
I know that naughty's "comfortable" to be aboard, that's less than say 30m when it's really blowing. And that even large ships aren't ideal then. Still, I'm genuinely curious to hear feedback on those who've driven their cats through storms from said perches... So, if you'd be so kind, & have weathered the storm (literally) from an elevated steering station, I'd REALLY appreciate it if you'd include; Cat make & model, sea & wind condition, the angle of both to the boat, boat direction vs. CMG, plus VMG vs. True Speed. Ah, & if you could include; noise level on and motion of the boat would, that would be appreciated too.

I hope that the above didn't come out as too overly harsh. It seems that at the moment, both my eloquence & descriptiveness circuts are running on emergency power. So apologies in advance.

In terms of visibility & helm stations, such is my standard MO: I'm used to having to move around a fair bit to see both what's to weather, as well as to leeward, underneath of deck-sweeper jibs. So I figure with twin tillers/wheels, coupled with sails which start a couple of feet off of the deck, odds are I wont be missing much, visibility wise, that I might catch from a raised helm station. Thoughts?

Besides, other than docking & close quarters maneuvering (or racing) I figure to let the vane/pilot do most of the driving anyway... it'll give me more time to mix margarita's & chase (and catch) the Siren(s) I figure to have as crew ;-) Ditto on landing something for dinner with my rod & reel.

Plus, if I'm perched up high, in an elevated station, it'll have me a good distance away from the navigation equipment/station. Where as, if I have say a tiller with an extension (or twin wheels), I can just open up the window on the back of the cabin house, & my chart table & electronic nav gear are right there. Which to me, is one of those nice, KEY, perks of having a Cat.

Electronics are nice, but IMO, there's a whole generation of sailors out there now who'd be up a certain "creek", sans paddle, if their GPS & similar toys packed up.
So being able to do my naviguessing from "on deck", through a window in the back of the cabin's a BIG perk for me.
*** Although if someone wants to donate me a "Deckman" with all of its vital bits, accessories, and add ons, you'll hear nary a complaint from me ;-) ***
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Old 22-09-2014, 01:17   #38
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grateful View Post
Barra,

Wow, that's some performance to weather!

Actually, I count the Catana boats as among the "modern production boats" with full headroom and galley up vs some of the frankly odd ball designs from Australia and the US West coast. I have to ask though, how did you like getting to and from, and sitting in that helm position in a very big following or beam sea off shore? That always seemed to me to be a wet, dangerous place to be unless you are just sailing around the bay or between islands.

I've never been on a Lagoon 450 (On paper they look heavy, under powered and, as you mention, have terrible windage.) I did spend some time and several thousand miles on a Lagoon 400 and was very impressed by it's performance.

(Kurt, if you're reading along, we sailed together on the University of Puget Sound sailing team and on that God-awful blue SJ 30 way back when - please don't take offense!)
Grateful;

Just interested in the designs from Australia you consider oddball.
Whilst I could agree there may be some I am interested in your oddballs.

I suspect they are not Schonnings, Grainger, Lightwave, Seawind , fusion 40.

Cheers
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Old 22-09-2014, 01:57   #39
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Unciv, you said you spent several thousand miles on a L400? So you would have a lot of experience with most of the questions you are asking as far as comfort, views, motion, performance etc. The helm on the L400 is about 2.5m above sea level, on the 450 about another meter higher. The L380 is similar to the 450 in most aspects. So Im a bit confused in that you were originally asking about smaller woods designs, and now about flybridge designs which generally start at 44'. Theres a big difference in comfort, performance and price. Maybe its best to refine your requirements and budget so you can focus on what might be suitable for you. Also let us know whhat you did and didnt like about the L400. For me a couple of thousand miles on board would soon let me know most of my personal preferences.
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Old 22-09-2014, 03:11   #40
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Uncivilised:

I'm the fellow who sailed his Sagitta across the Atlantic, and after that, up the Windward islands to Antigua.

A few comments...

The bridgedeck saloon. I understand there's a performance hit, with the extra weight and windage compared to an open deck cat, but I wouldn't be without it. It's the best part of the cat. Sheltered, all round visibility. That counts for an awful lot in my book. I've spent weeks sitting on the sofa with my Kindle and a cup of tea, sheltered from the wind, rain and sun keeping a good lookout. And I've done a lot of single-handed sailing on it too - I've arranged the seating in the saloon to be U-shaped, rather than just having seats fore and aft as in Richards's original design. This allows for dropping the table to make a huge double bed, but for single handing it means I have a very comfortable pilot berth from which I can sit up in bed and have a good lookout. I can even see my jib telltales lying in bed on my back. I have opening hatches on each side, so if I really need to have a good look around, I can open a hatch and pop my top half out of the hatch and see every direction, kneeling in my bed.

My navigation equipment comprises a Thinkpad with solid state memory running OpenCPN, plugged into an AIS. (I have a sextant too, and know how to use it.) I don't see the need for anything else. If I bought another boat, I'd put any plotters and so on that it came with on ebay, and just keep the laptop. With the laptop on the table, I could set alarms at night when I was single handing, or see at a glance what ships around me were doing.

Helming - I almost never do it. I use an Autohelm. I don't see the point of helming stations, unless you're racing.

Bridgedeck slamming - none really, going to windward. And I have done some of that amongst the islands, in the tradewinds. The only times the bridgedeck has been clobbered was going downwind in big seas. There was swell from a couple of directions, and when waves coincided under the bridgedeck, there'd be a loud bang and you'd expect structural damage, but I have seen no signs of damage inside or outside. And I have only experienced this over a couple of days during the Atlantic crossing. Otherwise no banging. I have heard complaints from other people who sailed cats across the Atlantic, that noise was a big bad aspect of their trip. I was very surprised to hear that. My boat is quiet. I don't know why it might be different. No-one has mentioned noise on a trip.

Galley down! For one thing, the Sagitta doesn't have the head room for galley up, but even if it did - galley down. You end up with a huge amount of space where you can quite easily cook even in the worst conditions. I don't know what you'd do that the space my galley uses if it wasn't a galley - it would be a corridor to another cabin I suppose, but two cabins is enough on a 30' boat. We can accommodate 6 people in 3 double beds - not that I'd make a habit of that.

Headroom: The bridgedeck doesn't have the floor space to wander about with your hands in your pockets. If you're upright -with your head ducked down a little - you're on your way from the bridgedeck to one hull of the other, so the lack of full standing headroom is hardly an inconvenience. There's full headroom in both bedrooms, the spacious bathroom and the kitchen.

Hope that helps.
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Old 25-09-2014, 19:34   #41
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Unciv, you said you spent several thousand miles on a L400? So you would have a lot of experience with most of the questions you are asking as far as comfort, views, motion, performance etc. The helm on the L400 is about 2.5m above sea level, on the 450 about another meter higher. The L380 is similar to the 450 in most aspects. So Im a bit confused in that you were originally asking about smaller woods designs, and now about flybridge designs which generally start at 44'. Theres a big difference in comfort, performance and price. Maybe its best to refine your requirements and budget so you can focus on what might be suitable for you. Also let us know whhat you did and didnt like about the L400. For me a couple of thousand miles on board would soon let me know most of my personal preferences.
Monte, I don't know where you're reading about me having spent time on an L400. To be honest, I'm guessing in saying that you mean a Lagoon 400?
The only time I've spent on big cats is 1 boat show 20 yrs ago, & back in '95, drinking a LOT of Moet, onboard ENZA, after we lost the America's Cup to the Kiwi's.
I HATE losing , but hey, couldn't have been to nicer, or more deserving guys & country.
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Old 26-09-2014, 10:39   #42
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Monte, I don't know where you're reading about me having spent time on an L400. To be honest, I'm guessing in saying that you mean a Lagoon 400?
The only time I've spent on big cats is 1 boat show 20 yrs ago, & back in '95, drinking a LOT of Moet, onboard ENZA, after we lost the America's Cup to the Kiwi's.
I HATE losing , but hey, couldn't have been to nicer, or more deserving guys & country.

Hey guys, I was the one who traveled for several thousand miles on a L400, not Uncivilized.
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Old 26-09-2014, 12:24   #43
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Uncivilized, although I believe that they no longer produce kits or sell plans, have you considered a Dazcat? They seem to be right down your alley: boards, lightweight and with a decided emphasis on performance, although capable of cruising.

Brad

PS, just checked their site and they still sell kits as well as complete boats:

http://www.dazcat.com/kit-build.html
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Old 27-09-2014, 23:21   #44
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Re: Woods Designs & Bridgedeck Slamming

Southern Star,
Thanks for the link! I'll look into it.
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