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Old 24-06-2013, 11:12   #211
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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Thanks i thought that was the case, you've confirmed my hazy thoughts.

Now i believe the bridge-deck was then added without hull volume changes and that was not good for the marque....I'm not being critical i'm just trying to confirm history and Factor of all people should know more..

Cheers.
I don't think there were any hull changes after the addition of the hardtop. But then again the hulls were designed to take the weight of twin diesels so maybe the difference in weight between the twin diesels and the the outboards made up for the hardtop? I do know the Seawind 1000 with hull extensions or the 1000xl is a completely different boat than the original 1000 in both speed and motion. I couldn't tell the difference in speed between our 1000 with the canvas top and the one with the hardtop, still made 75-80% of wind speed on a decent heading!
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Old 24-06-2013, 17:04   #212
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Thanks i thought that was the case, you've confirmed my hazy thoughts.

Now i believe the bridge-deck was then added without hull volume changes and that was not good for the marque....I'm not being critical i'm just trying to confirm history and Factor of all people should know more..

Cheers.
It might help if you used the correct terminology. When you say bridgedeck I not unnaturally think you mean - well bridge deck.

A Bridgedeck is the deck between the hulls, if however you mean an a bridgedeck cabin, no the first 18 odd boats had a soft top and the rest hard top. The hard top overall weight difference to the soft top is minimal, particularly after boat #4 when deisels were ditched and replaced with outboards. Indeed the first hardtop boat was lighter overall than the first soft top boats. In the attached photos, 1000-1 shows the bridgedeck that has been on all 1000s. It was never added requiring hull redesign, photo 1000-2 shows the initial boats with bridgedeck and soft top.

The 1160 was not a 1000 with a bridgedeck - or indeed anything else added to it, totally different boat, totally seperate set of moulds, and indeed a totally different construction technique. The 1000 is hulls joined by beams, the 1160 has only two external moulds, a single hulls/bridgedeck and a saloon/deck.

The 1160 photos attached show the different configuration of the saloon including the open view into the galley.

So when you said that the 1000 had a bridgedeck added and should have had hull volume changes to make an 1160, well - you can understand my confusion.

The idea of taking a design and then adding hull volume to it to fix a design displacement problem is not something that makes much sense in any event. If you add hull volume without any other change, and without an overall analysis, all you do is make a fat boat, and very few designers go down that path if they want a boat that sails respectably.

To conclude,
Quote:
Now i believe the bridge-deck was then added without hull volume changes and that was not good for the marque
Your proposition appeared to me to be that the 1000 started without a bridgedeck and had one added, that it is incorrect, or that the 1000 had a bridgedeck cabin added to make an 1160, that too is incorrect or that the addittion of the hardtop to the 1000 required fatter hulls, again incorrect. I apologise if I misunderstood your proposition, but they were the three "ideas" I drew from your comments.

In short 1000 - always had a bridgedeck - started with softtop, went to hardtop, little or no overall displacement difference

1160 is not a 1000 with a bridgedeck added.

And the 1160 hull beam width is in fact different to the 1000 in any event.


Quote:
i'm just trying to confirm history and Factor of all people should know more
You want a history lesson on Seawinds - happy to oblige, I have been on almost every one ever launched since the start of 850 series. I suspect most here though would be bored by that.

Also been on most Lightwaves, and at least one representative of each model in the FP and Lagoon lines, the recent Outremers, and a few of the older Outremer designs, And a smattering of Schionnings, (Both Craig and Jeff) and Pescotts and Chamberlains and lots of Graingers as well as a lot of crowthers, lidgards, simpsons and many many others. Really Really Really want to get a lump of sea time on a Chris White Atlantic 57 and Hammerhead Tri, I think I would really enjoy both those boats, but not too many of them in this part of the world.
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Old 24-06-2013, 22:14   #213
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

Bridge deck is the decking connection between hulls can have a pod or cabin of any configuration..

By volume i mean displacement to carry the extra weight load not to jam more weight in.

My point was i believe a cabin was added without a volume change to the hulls which would logically mean a redesign which i don't believe was done.

Cheers
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Old 24-06-2013, 22:20   #214
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

The idea of taking a design and then adding hull volume to it to fix a design displacement problem is not something that makes much sense in any event. If you add hull volume without any other change, and without an overall analysis, all you do is make a fat boat, and very few designers go down that path if they want a boat that sails respectably.

'tis called evolution, most designers i've known have shortened/lengthened rigs, raked transoms, plumbed bows, bluntened entries, added keels and fattened hulls to accommodate, owners/designers requests.

I don't believe i proposed that a singular change was made at all?

Cheers.
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Old 24-06-2013, 22:51   #215
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
My point was i believe a cabin was added without a volume change to the hulls which would logically mean a redesign which i don't believe was done.
Cheers
And my answer was

1. that at no stage was there a cabin added to the 1000 to create the 1160, and
2. at no stage did the hardtop added to the 1000 early in its life require any hull change as the overall displacement of the vessel was unaffected and indeed compared to the early soft tops the boat was in fact lighter.

also

Quote:
Bridge deck is the decking connection between hulls can have a pod or cabin of any configuration..
Correct and its been there since day 1 of the 1000
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Old 24-06-2013, 23:40   #216
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

At the risk of drifting slightly closer to where this thread started, viz. price differentials, although not limiting ourselves to strictly Seawind vs Lagoon, we just heard several reports of a large number of vessels arriving in Australia over the past 18 months or so. More specifically it was suggested a group of vessels (possibly more than 100!?) arrived around the same time, apparently landing at Bundaberg, and then many of them ended up for sale in Australia. Whether what we heard is entirely accurate, we can't say, but we did speak to at least a couple of happy new owners who indicated they paid bargain prices for their vessels as a consequence of what was possibly (and may still be?) a mini-depression of vessel prices on the OZ east coast.

Our point? Well, it could be that the prices of vessels in Australia (notably Seawinds as there are many here) are now being moderated by an excess of supply over demand. Just thought we'd pass that along FWIW.
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Old 25-06-2013, 00:31   #217
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

Balanced against this is the collapse of the $A which will push up the price of all boats in Oz. However, on the other side we are a good chance of a recession and boating is a luxury spend.
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Old 25-06-2013, 01:09   #218
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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Balanced against this is the collapse of the $A which will push up the price of all boats in Oz. However, on the other side we are a good chance of a recession and boating is a luxury spend.
All true, but the sale figures suggested to us were WAY beyond any currency adjustment(s)...and well ahead of any (possible) looming recession. They suggest some serious (downward!) price reality-checking for OZ boat vendors...if accurate, of course...

That said, the asking prices we actually see around here now -- We're also told the 'adjustment' finished a few months ago... -- are probably only modestly lower than what we saw when we were buyers here ~3yrs ago.
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Old 25-06-2013, 01:48   #219
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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- We're also told the 'adjustment' finished a few months ago... -- are probably only modestly lower than what we saw when we were buyers here ~3yrs ago.
LOL. Don't ya love "broker speak!"
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Old 25-06-2013, 02:12   #220
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

I have been looking for around 6 months and I have looked at hundreds of boats. The sellers can be broadly categorised into 2 camps. Those that know their reasonable price but are simply hoping someone who doesn't will come along and those that know their reasonsble price and are willing to sell it at that reasonable price.

Assuming the boat is manufactured in reasonable numbers those sailing in will have a good idea of what their boat is worth by virtue of the overseas boats on sale and adding import costs. Many of these boats have sold but many haven't and the owners have simply left and continued cruising. I would not think this number would be anywhere near the 100 mark.

Those majority of those domiciled in Australia will not be what I would call realistic sellers but rather simply testing the market or putting it on the market because the wife demands it.

In either case I now have a depreciation model which is uncannily accurate when one considers actual selling prices. Of course their are outliers especially in low volume boats.

In the case of Seawind owners virtually all I speak to have an overriding belief that their boat is worth more than the market value and they will wait years to achieve it if necessary. Of course when one considers the cost of money and operational cost this is invariably false economy, but I guess as long as they are using the boat then this is quite reasonable. What I find hard to fathom is that I see boats sitting in the marina permanently unused because the owner wants to achieve an unrealistic price.

I do not think that applies only to Seawind owners as I see it with Lightwave as well. I think this stems from the fact that there is no real international comparison that they can make.

Getting to the point of lowering prices, I have certainly not detected this. What I have seen is that there is a dramatic reduction in the number of buyers who will shell out $300-600K for a boat, and if you are therefore a genuine seller and you have to meet the market then your boat may well sell below market. Talking to both Seawind and Lightwave I am told that compared to a couple of years ago buyer numbers are significantly less.

Further, I am now detecting that the crashing exchange rate is having an effect on prices as the prices of new boats now extend beyond the range of the buyers that are there and they opt for second hand.

Consequently, I believe that now is a good time to get in and buy, but don't expect Seawind or Lightwave owners to drop as the prices of their new boats are increasing as well and they will wait until someone who really wants their boat to come along.
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Old 25-06-2013, 02:56   #221
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

Before Factor corrects me I note that a couple of 1160s have sold recently at what I would call reasonable prices and another is advertised at what I assume will sell for a reasonable price.

Never seen these boats by the way, just going on their spec and age and so on.

So it appears that Seawinds are starting to meet the market.
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Old 25-06-2013, 04:15   #222
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New boats have all just gone up by about 10%.

I expect that there is currently a window now to buy used at a very good price before the market balances out again.
Another aspect is since the GFC new boat builds are down thus fewer numbers to choose from.
The only inbalance has been the huge amounts of ex Usa boats landing in Australia which i imagine will slow.
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Old 25-06-2013, 14:56   #223
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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New boats have all just gone up by about 10%.

I expect that there is currently a window now to buy used at a very good price before the market balances out again.
Another aspect is since the GFC new boat builds are down thus fewer numbers to choose from.
The only inbalance has been the huge amounts of ex Usa boats landing in Australia which i imagine will slow.
I agree with the window.

I sure wish I was in position toss 300k.

Just can't do it.
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Old 25-06-2013, 15:47   #224
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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LOL. Don't ya love "broker speak!"
In this case, none of our 'sources' were brokers, but we certainly know what you mean!

cwjohm, good comments and market summary.
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Old 25-06-2013, 16:41   #225
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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SNIP

I have looked at a lot of cats and now realize most are simply out of the question for one reason only. I will NOT and the wife will NOT spend a lot of money and have to climb OVER the other person in the bunk in order to leave said bunk.

Sure makes picking a boat a lot easier than I though it would.

Oh, and she won't "climb up" into a bunk that she may "fall from" while attempting to leave if things are bumpy.
As the owner of a Seawind 1000 with extensions I understand why some folks would be concerned about climbing into the owners bunk. I had a girl who insisted in using the forward bunk instead of climbing up.

On the other hand if there were serious issues with water getting in the port hull and the level was over the top of the forward bunk the owners bunk would still be high and dry. While this is something I hope I will never have to test or experience it does make sense.

There is no real right or wrong answer here. I have spent the last seven months getting use to my Seawind. I find it very comfortable to live on, easy to single hand, fast enough to leave every other boat in the harbor in the dust with the exception of a C31 and another Seawind.

One thing I have noticed is how different cats are. I spent a few afternoons in my tender taking pix of the sterns of many cats. One thing I noticed is that with the exception of Seawinds the pix looked like a brick wall. In my mind the biggest offender was a Dean.

On the other hand I had dinner, and sailed, on a Lagoon and was impressed with the room, microwave oven, AC, and over all livability. However I did hear some gripes about the noise from the genset on the Lagoon.

I have to say after visiting the Lagoon, some FPs, a Manta, and looking at a lot more cats the only boat I have seen that gave me second thoughts about my Seawind was an owner built F39. It could reach an honest 22kns with a six man crew and had plenty of room for the owner and his wife. But I am not sure I could single hand it as easily as the Seawind.

Horses for courses.
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