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Old 17-06-2013, 21:38   #136
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Hi

The prices I quoted were not wrong, but were in Australia where 17% taxes apply and you have to allow from 50K-100K for shipping. The prices you are comparing to are of course considerably less.

If you are going to make meaningful comparisons you need to look at boats in the same jurisdiction.
Ahh ok so the same Seawind manufactured in an Australian suburb but sold here in the Med will be cheaper? Got you, i'll look amongst the forest of French Cats out sailing here today.
Yes i understand about costs to import BUT my friend add that on to the prices here in the Med and you can still use the difference to cruise for 18months and get a far more luxurious boat IN MY EXPERIENCE!!!!! Not googled experience but actual, is that meaningful enough for you?

Now i used our buying experience and that of my friends boats as a comparison for that value and the Seawind comes out as lesser and dearer further supporting the quandary....

Cruising Cat 'One broken egg an omelette does not make', the point here that i've tried to make is "I don't know why Seawinds are more expensive than Lagoons" which fits into the topic of this thread. What a bridge-deck failure has to do with this i have no idea. If one new Corvette loses a wheel does it mean they are all due to lose one?

Now let me look at ARC results for Seawinds/Lagoons for the Atlantic, oh hang on, maybe next year?

We have all seen boats suffer extreme damage but unless there's a pattern of failure there are usually other reasons and they are likely to be isolated.

Google away i don't believe there's a pattern, more to your point as my 'egg analogy' indicated, with the high amount of Lagoons out sailing in all kinds of waters in all kinds of conditions with all kinds of idiots driving/helming all over the world, there is in fact minimal failures.

Do we see Seawinds being gobbled up for the charter market? No. Why? Because they are dearer, more fragile and the layouts not suitable!

Hey lets start a thread and ask why!!!!!!

Give it a break people, i'm not criticising i'm only trying to add some factual points to the discussion, because those points differ or are new to the discussion or that my opinion may differ don't shoot the messenger.

Cheers i'm off searching for that swarm of Seawinds, after breakfast of course.........
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Old 17-06-2013, 22:50   #137
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

Hi

I must admit to being a little confused.

I compared Seawind 1160 prices to Lagoon 400 in Australia.

Now we have pictures posted of a Lagoon 440 and prices of Lagoon 440 being compared, supposedly as a response to my comparisons.

If I understand the rather contorted argument being made that has nothing to do with what I said, but rather a comparison is being made between an 1160 and a Lagoon 440 because you can buy a used Lagoon 440 for the same price as a Seawind 1160 in the med.

This is hardly surprising is it, given the number of Lagoons manufactured in location as compared to Seawinds being shipped to the other side of the world, just as it is not a surprise to anyone that you could stuff 2 Seawind 1160s into a Lagoon 440.

THis thread seems to have drifted from the original point of price differences which several posters and myself have attempted to explain on the basis of simple economic priniciples, to something quite different, which may well be interesting, but will probably violate the niceness filter that the moderators seem to require here.
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Old 17-06-2013, 22:56   #138
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

If I understand the rather contorted argument being made that has nothing to do with what I said, but rather a comparison is being made between an 1160 and a Lagoon 440 because you can buy a used Lagoon 440 for the same price as a Seawind 1160 in the med.


This is where you are missing the point, the price of a privately owned Lagoon 440 in the med fully loaded, shipped back to Australia, tax paid is still less than a Seawind.
If you think that's not a relevent point then you need to reread the thread title instead of putting contentious arguments up....
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Old 17-06-2013, 23:49   #139
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

No I didnt miss the point. That is exactly what I thought you were saying.

Hmm, lets see. I can buy a nice late model (2007 plus) 1160 for around A$450K in Aus. Take off taxes and shipping. So say $70K for shipping (Lagoon 440 is a big unit) and $60K for taxes so A$320K for a late model Lagoon 440 in the med.

Wow, sign me up. I am on a plane tomorrow. How much do you charge to act as my buying broker.
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Old 18-06-2013, 00:24   #140
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

That is 220K Euro if that makes it easier.

To be fair in comparison, just to compare apples to apples

(a) only one private owner since manufacture
(b) all mod cons similar to your boat will be fine

Oh, and dont forget the electrical and plumbing compliance issues to get Australian boat certification because I want to sell if for A$600 as soon as I get it.
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Old 18-06-2013, 00:36   #141
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

Now you are being argumentative which gels with your comment regarding the niceness filter for what ever reason you mention it, the only flaw in your costing is i can ship the boat if i wished for 35k.

Also the tax in Australia is based on the purchase contract value..... So your figure again will reduce.


I know of an 8 year old extremely well looked after 410 that went for 160k, stop the stupid baiting and accept that people could well be correct when they bother to post to contribute to the discussion, and the discussion is :- Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon and my point is 'i don't know why when you get more for your money with an even bigger boat' AAAaaagggghhhhhhh!

But still cheers!
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Old 18-06-2013, 00:55   #142
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

My good and nice friend.

As you said our only desire is to inject some facts in the mix.

So from Australian Customs website.

Yachts are subject to a general rate of duty of 5% based on the customs value (basically the price paid) and 10% GST calculated on the customs value plus international transport and insurance plus the duty.

Now I import equipment all the time from all over the world and there is NO WAY you will get a Lagoon 440 into Australia for $35K unless you sail it in. If you like I will get a quote but I am pretty sure $70K is conservative.

I am very glad that you saw an 8 year old 410 for $160K but we were talking about a recent 440 such as yours were we not.

I am not interested in baiting anyone, especially such a good fellow such as you. I personally enjoyed seeing the pictures of your boat and I am quite envious especially at the price range you imply you purchased it, but to compare it with an 1160 either in size, price, or any other measure is simply not reasonable.

As to the heading of the thread. myself and others have attempted to explain why for understandable economic reasons Seawinds are priced as they are. There is no mystery there.
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Old 18-06-2013, 01:36   #143
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

wjohm
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Re: Why. Used seawind is so much higher price than lagoon
Just checked.

In Australia 3 late model seawind 1160 asking price $450-$530.


SO

1) The above was your post that i commented on.

2) Do you see your figure quoted 450 to 530k?

3) My comments were/are based on those figures average around 500k.

4) My comment was and still is that you can buy a much bigger Lagoon 440 for far less than that and have enough cash left to cruise for a few years.

At no time did i say cruise Australia, that's the great part you can start the cruise here in the med and head home....

Whether you want the boat in Australia, America, Africa or here in the Med is only relevent to where you are or where your prepared to go to.

This Forum is international and the answer is international, but still, however you look at it, Seawinds are more expensive and why was the question.....
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Old 18-06-2013, 01:54   #144
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
My good and nice friend.

As you said our only desire is to inject some facts in the mix.

So from Australian Customs website.

Yachts are subject to a general rate of duty of 5% based on the customs value (basically the price paid) and 10% GST calculated on the customs value plus international transport and insurance plus the duty.

Now I import equipment all the time from all over the world and there is NO WAY you will get a Lagoon 440 into Australia for $35K unless you sail it in. If you like I will get a quote but I am pretty sure $70K is conservative.

I am very glad that you saw an 8 year old 410 for $160K but we were talking about a recent 440 such as yours were we not.

I am not interested in baiting anyone, especially such a good fellow such as you. I personally enjoyed seeing the pictures of your boat and I am quite envious especially at the price range you imply you purchased it, but to compare it with an 1160 either in size, price, or any other measure is simply not reasonable.

As to the heading of the thread. myself and others have attempted to explain why for understandable economic reasons Seawinds are priced as they are. There is no mystery there.
I don't believe tax is relevant, bring the Seawind to Europe and you'll pay in excess of 17% and it matters not that you paid GST in Australia so your argument or point is truly flawed as the Seawind here will cost way more on the sec on hand market IF you could find a buyer?

Cheers
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Old 18-06-2013, 02:41   #145
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Allright i will sell my 2005 Lagoon 440 never chartered tax paid sitiing in Australia for $450,000 today.

Great condition all the extras.

There is your value of a Lagoon 440 to comapre to what ever Seawind you like.

Now thats done i can go and buy a Lagoon 520 and play in the Med with all the nice sailors.
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Old 18-06-2013, 03:08   #146
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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As for the real cruising world.... I will mention a Lagoon (I think a 420) which sailed from New Caledonia to Bundaberg in last year's Port-to-Port rally had a serious failure, one which caused a rescue helicopter to be deployed. In fairly heavy beam seas, The hull-deck join started to separate, and the boat started taking on water.

Fortunately they were close to Australia and were able to run downwind and shelter behind Lady Musgrave Island till the weather improved.
Yes, I believe it was a Lagoon 420 that suffered damage to the hull deck join. It made quite a mess of the interior as you might imagine. I wasn't there either, but reliable reports from people I trust assure me the damage resulted from poor seamanship rather than vessel deficiency. (Please correct if more accurate information is available!) Apparently, the vessel was allowed to lie ahull for a very long time in very steep breaking seas. The type of seas that result when the south flowing East Australian current meets a gale force southeasterly wind just off our continental shelf. Enough said.

Just because a vessel breaks, there is no need to imply that that the breed is defective. Good vessels can be broken. I believe you are working on one (an Oram 44C) at the moment!

Likewise, just because a SW1250 sailed the opposite direction in similar winds at a later date without sustaining damage makes it a better boat, is ridiculous. Perhaps it had a competent crew?
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Old 18-06-2013, 03:27   #147
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

OK, I surrender.

After all its the Australian ethos never to let the facts get in the way of a good yarn, and equivocating an 1160 with a Lagoon 440 is right up there.

All power to you but how I wish it were true where I live (Oz).

Hopefully I can find this mythical 42-44" cat that comes even close in price to an 1160 of similar age and disposition. Rest assured if I do I will snap it up post haste and I will post pictures immediately.

In the meantime I can only dream of the price of boats currently offered in Europe.

All the best
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Old 18-06-2013, 03:48   #148
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
OK, I surrender.

After all its the Australian ethos never to let the facts get in the way of a good yarn, and equivocating an 1160 with a Lagoon 440 is right up there.

All power to you but how I wish it were true where I live (Oz).

Hopefully I can find this mythical 42-44" cat that comes even close in price to an 1160 of similar age and disposition. Rest assured if I do I will snap it up post haste and I will post pictures immediately.

In the meantime I can only dream of the price of boats currently offered in Europe.

All the best
And dream you can but if you want me to guide you to one just holler, there was a great boat to same specs for 350,000 euros 250 hours on engines BUT it has a teak deck which is both heavy and hot.

That's a fact!

Sleep well
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Old 18-06-2013, 03:52   #149
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

I'm with Jim, its my favourite thread by far......it would be so much better all together sharing a couple of beers, and once this topic was sorted, there would be many more in a similar vein...we could be drinking forever !
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Old 18-06-2013, 03:57   #150
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Re: Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

LMAO Now in the Caribbean the Rum is $20 for two litres and the limes cheap as well so best the venue be BVI at the very least...

Cheers Frank
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