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Old 17-06-2008, 18:28   #61
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Computers taking over everything-

For instance, what happens to the state of the art electric propulsion control system when the boat sustains a lightning hit? Everything electronic is toast. It's happened to me. In my humble opinion, K.I.S.S. should always prevail.[/quote]

Unfortunately, the new diesels are all computer controlled, because of environmental regulations - they burn cleaner. I have had vehicles I was driving die while on the freeway at freeway speeds, because the onboard computer decided it was time to die. You sigh, get towed, and write a $800 check.

Now this can happen at sea, except you may be thousands of miles from the nearest tow service. At least on a cat you usually have two, if you have inboard power.
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Old 17-06-2008, 18:45   #62
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A 42' cat with a 'walk around' double berth is going to have fat hulls to make that possible, and so its going to be slow. No way around it. It's easier to have a fast large cat than a fast small one, not only because the waterline is longer, but because the scale we are all working to is the human body. A double berth is a given size, if it is to be comfortable. It takes a wide hull to have a double berth in the hull, if the boat is short, but a narrow hull will do fine for the same berth in a long hull. You can draw a decent interior if the beam waterline of the hulls is 5' - but on a small boat, that's a big hull beam. On a big boat, that's a small hull beam. A big hull beam = a slow boat, a narrow hull beam = a fast boat.
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Old 17-06-2008, 18:55   #63
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exfishnz: if half of your worst case scenario happens, you're dead. If all of it happens, you're dead, er, twice!

If you walk down a pleasant country lane in dappled sunshine with a gentle warm breeze blowing out of the south and a meteorite hits you, you're dead.

If no more than a couple bad things happen at once, you're not dead. You may even be happy to have a couple challenges to your coping skills. If a bunch of bad things happen to you all the time, you may actually just have a gratitude deficit! [coupled with an over active imagination and an enlarged opinion of your relative importance to a vengeful god.]

In reality, most cruisers have independant redundancy on major systems, and a battle plan for failures at sea.

And you really shouldn't have shredded my brand new sails; they are damn sturdy, from Dave Calvert and ought to last me at least as long as the last ones did, fourteen years! And my ditch bag gps, radio, solar battery charger and epirb all live in a copper screened Farraday cage. You're gonna have to have armed pirates shooting up the boat to put them out of commission!

fullafrisky: You've overlooked the fact that a smaller boat will beat you to death in the open ocean, or just crossing the Gulf Stream. A bigger boat spans the small sh*t and keeps the dinner on the table. People who can afford a 45 to 60 foot cat ARE NOT going to give that up.

Lets all be on the lookout for Madwand to return with a different name.
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Old 17-06-2008, 19:06   #64
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Lets all be on the lookout for Madwand to return with a different name.
Sandy, I like your style . . . and your observations! It's good to have you here.

TaoJones
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Old 17-06-2008, 21:23   #65
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In my humble opinion, K.I.S.S. should always prevail.
Hello Gideon, I agree 100%.

FYI: A while back I came across some pricing for the Solomon Technologies propulsion & electrics system. The price is actually very expensive. It would be cheaper to install 2x new Yanmars, permanent magnet DC alternators, wind generators, solar panels, charge controllers, extra amp batts, high watt inverter & have plenty of cash left over for several thousands of gallons of fuel. I would also expect the same to apply to the Glacier Bay propulsion & electric systems. The only time these systems pay off is when you absolutely need high house power load consumption to the level of mega yacht/cruise ship's or require instant high torque propulsion (from the DC motors) such as tugs, ice breakers etc.
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Old 17-06-2008, 21:49   #66
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exfishnz: if half of your worst case scenario happens, you're dead. If all of it happens, you're dead, er, twice!
If you've looked at a basic design of these all boat electric systems then you'll note that if a vital component fails then everything in my list will happen. Why? Because everything require's electrical current from the same circuit. That's why I said, what happens if a computer chip fry's & the system completely shuts down?

I agree 100% with having redundant systems. However, that kind of negates the point (& high cost) of installing these
all boat electric systems.

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And you really shouldn't have shredded my brand new sails
Sorry about that, It wasn't my watch, we were hit by a squall & it was too late to reef the sails
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Old 17-06-2008, 22:07   #67
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fullafrisky: You've overlooked the fact that a smaller boat will beat you to death in the open ocean, or just crossing the Gulf Stream. A bigger boat spans the small sh*t and keeps the dinner on the table. People who can afford a 45 to 60 foot cat ARE NOT going to give that up.

Hey, if you want the biggest boat, car, or house, go for it! I don't think the vast majority of sailors or future sailors will be crossing the ocean to China or even playing in the "Gulf Stream". I think most sailors travel latitudinally (north to south) and would be considered coastal cruisers. Most aren't even sailing along the coast, but are on big lakes or such. It's the "majority" I am speaking of, not the minority of world travelers. I would certainly not want to make a transatlantic crossing on a 30 foot cat. That I agree with you on. But in order to "grow this sport", manufacturers are going to have to address the needs of the short haul sailor with more techy boats with smaller footprints. The vast majority of crews consist of one, two, or maybe, even three person crews. Kinda hard to sail a 60 foot behemoth with a couple of yuppie sailors. But each to his own.
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Old 17-06-2008, 22:38   #68
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Unfortunately, the new diesels are all computer controlled... the onboard computer decided it was time to die.
That's a very good point & I've wondered about this myself for a mono. I guess I would carry a spare computer (black box bolted to the side of the engine). In the prevention of lightning damage, I wonder if it would be feasible to completely separate the engines electrics from the rest of the vessel (i.e. separate earth plate, extra alternator, batt etc)?
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Old 17-06-2008, 23:02   #69
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Hello Gideon, I agree 100%.
Sorry, I've quoted the wrong member. It should read rickm505 not Gideon.
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Old 18-06-2008, 02:45   #70
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Hey, be careful now, otherwise we might mistake you for being EUROPEAN

Cheers

Alan
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Old 18-06-2008, 11:20   #71
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Originally Posted by rickm505 View Post
Gideon, with all due repect a boat builder can not be held responsible for what amounts to an Act of God.

For instance, what happens to the state of the art electric propulsion control system when the boat sustains a lightning hit? Everything electronic is toast. It's happened to me.

In my humble opinion, K.I.S.S. should always prevail.
When this happens and that is possible we start sailing as usual until we get to shore and then we repair.
It has happened to me with 2 diesels on board
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Old 18-06-2008, 11:21   #72
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Originally Posted by rickm505 View Post
Gideon, with all due repect a boat builder can not be held responsible for what amounts to an Act of God.

For instance, what happens to the state of the art electric propulsion control system when the boat sustains a lightning hit? Everything electronic is toast. It's happened to me.

In my humble opinion, K.I.S.S. should always prevail.
By the way
ever tried to hand start a diesel ?

No way

greetings
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Old 18-06-2008, 12:55   #73
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By the way
ever tried to hand start a diesel ?

No way

greetings

No, when I was struck, we saw the squall coming and I had time to haul down the sails and start the engines. Interesting to note that the older Yanmar diesels do not have any electronic controls. Lightning struck us at the top of the mast and the exit point were the prop shafts. My Yanmars never missed a beat.

All in all it was a very expensive day for us
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Old 18-06-2008, 12:58   #74
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Sorry, I've quoted the wrong member. It should read rickm505 not Gideon.
No harm done
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Old 18-06-2008, 13:53   #75
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...Lightning struck us at the top of the mast and the exit point were the prop shafts. My Yanmars never missed a beat...
Rick, you were "lucky"!

When a friend's boat was struck, the path was through the engine block and shaft. It turned his engine oil to tar! What a mess that was to clean out!
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