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Old 16-06-2008, 11:03   #46
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OK, folks.

Let's all take a deep breath and let it out slowly. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Now, doesn't that feel better?

No need for anyone to get worked up. There's room for all the opinions that I've seen posted in this thread.

Let's give Madwand a little slack here. He's new to the community, so give him a warm welcome.

Madwand, you might want to think about toning down your repartee just a bit. There's a huge amount of experience and boat knowledge represented on this Forum, but to tap it, you need to avoid ticking off the respondents.

Thanks, everyone.
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Old 16-06-2008, 11:47   #47
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Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
but I am specifically looking at all-electric boats... But I really like their idea of self-sufficient sailing.
Sorry Madwand, cannot help you with your cat interior issues. However, if they're too expensive to customise, then perhaps an economical customised mono is in order here?

Having said that, can someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but are these so called claimed all-electric boat hybrid systems really at the point where they can make a sailor truly self-sufficient? I mean - are not all of the vessel's electrics connected together into this system? What happens when the computer's fry on these things? Unless you're a fully trained electronics's engineer (not the typical 12/24v DC hacker like most of us) & can rebuild complete circuit boards from scratch (especially when the winds are screaming 50+kts & 25'+ sea's are crashing down on you) & carry all the small electronic components required - then you might find yourself in very serious poo poo.
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Old 16-06-2008, 14:07   #48
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There are NO "all-electric" boats for cruising. They are all some kind of hybrid requiring a diesel electric generator if you need to sail under power for more than a few hours.

They are normally heavier, due to the large amount of batteries, still have a diesel or 2 to generate electricity, lots of fancy electronics to control the power. Batteries need to be replaced after some years.

If you leave out electric propulsion, and drop the engines, then you start getting closer the eco-friendly solution that was the standard about 50 years ago.

There are several threads on the subject that I suggest you look at Madwand.


Regarding the number of berths in a cat. Look at the custom or semi custom builders, they will often have fewer berths and heads than the charter boats. The Chris White designs are a good example of this, as are several others.
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Old 16-06-2008, 14:24   #49
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Originally Posted by sandy daugherty View Post
I believe that you concerns about repairing can be laid to rest... simple box with off the shelf plug and play components
Its one thing to repair PC's onshore, but quite another when you're at sea.

Quote:
Most of such a system in solid state and/or sealed. But it seems to get so much engineering attention that it may be a very remote failure point.
Murphy's law is that whatever will fail - will do so at the worst possible time - & this is what one should always plan for.

Quote:
making repairs to a centralized hybrid electric's control system is a bit worrisome though

Let's make a worse case scenario from a failed vital component:
no propulsion
no pilot
no electric winches
no electronics
no communications
no lighting
no watermaker
no hot water
no air heating/cooling
no cooking
no refrigeration
sails blown out in storm
and either:
a) being blown out to deep sea, or
b) being blown towards to a remote & dangerous rocky coast where the waves are getting bigger (e.g. surfing) as you get closer to the shoreline.
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Old 16-06-2008, 14:31   #50
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Re: bbs swapped posts

Not sure what happened (with the bbs software), but posts # 49 & 53 are displayed in the wrong order.

Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Single Post - Why so many unnecessary cabins and heads?
Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Single Post - Why so many unnecessary cabins and heads?
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Old 16-06-2008, 16:28   #51
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I'm reminded of an interesting site:
Enfant Provocateur

Exfish: Good question! Self sufficiency is probably a goal for circumnavigators, but you've touched on an area I'm interested in. My goal has been to be self sufficient for 40 days. My solutions are a watermaker, and sufficient refrigeration powered exclusively by solar panels. I've not achieved that yet, but I think I'm close. The Solomons Technology Conser 47 had a remarkable feature; with the motors set at a certain speed (6 knots), when the boat exceded that speed the system would convert to regeneration, resulting in a net gain in banked AH at the end of a typical caribbean day.

I'm a computer hobbyist, and have built a lot of machines. I believe that you concerns about repairing can be laid to rest. see
SSCA Discussion Board :: View topic - Tower vs. Laptop
This is a long string about computers on board, but the point made is that a simple box with off the shelf plug and play components can be maintained by anyone if there are a set of inexpensive spares bagged and stored on board.
Your point about making repairs to a centralized hybrid electric's control system is a bit worrisome though. Most of such a system in solid state and/or sealed. But it seems to get so much engineering attention that it may be a very remote failure point. I'm watching the Lagoon 420 forum closely.
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Old 16-06-2008, 16:53   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
It was my understanding that a bridgedeck was on the outside of the boat. Why would you have a mattress there? And since you like correcting me so much, Sandy, isn't a floor supposed to be called a deck, thus making "bridgedeck floor" both redundant and ignorant?

No, I have never sailed on a cruising catamaran but I do have eyes and I have seen pictures. I have no need to sail one to know that the following pictures accurately display an insane amount of wasted space:


That's the inside of a Lagoon 420. I don't see the spot you are saying there is no headroom.

Yes, I have stayed overnight on a sailboat. I own 3. I built a 12' fiberglass catboat from scratch, I own a 12' Hobie Bravo, and I own a 19' Com-Pac sloop. The Com-Pac is tiny by comparison, but it has everything, in proportion, that any other sailboat has, except an inboard engine. My berth consists of a 6' long by 4' wide by 3' high space. The boat had 2 other berths that I use for stowage instead since it's ignorant to have 4 berths on a boat that small. What's your point?
The thing is, the boat you're looking at is a Lagoon 420. Their target market is mainly the charter business, so they set their boats up accordingly - lots of berths, lots of heads, with performance under sail being a secondary consideration.

As I said before, for what you're looking for, most production boats won't fit the bill.
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Old 16-06-2008, 18:00   #53
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I'm curious to know why you can only get most (if not all?) cats in 3 or 4 cabin configurations?
for nookie
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Old 16-06-2008, 19:12   #54
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There are NO "all-electric" boats for cruising. They are all some kind of hybrid requiring a diesel electric generator if you need to sail under power for more than a few hours.
Hello Nordic cat,

You are absolutely correct. I'm aware of such systems (re: Solomon Technologies, Glacier Bay etc). I was just a little bit concerned that people may be mistaking them as truly self-sufficient. I've heard of ships temporarily losing their propulsion system because the weakest link has gone "toast" & the onboard fully trained electrical propulsion engineer has to track down this link & replace it.

Quote:
If you leave out electric propulsion, and drop the engines, then you start getting closer the eco-friendly solution that was the standard about 50 years ago.
Engines are more fuel efficient & lighter than ever (re high use of Yanmar in cats). I don't buy this eco-friendly (argument) stuff, too much politics involved.
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Old 16-06-2008, 23:21   #55
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Originally Posted by exfishnz View Post
Let's make a worse case scenario from a failed vital component:
...
Oh, I forgot to add:

no bilge/fire/hose pumps (unless you've got manual one's or are very fast/strong with a bucket).
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Old 17-06-2008, 03:57   #56
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I thought the tread was about the number of cabins and beds onboard ?
In our ( Multi ) Hybrid solution we use wind, solar, water generated and optionally diesel power and Lithium batterys for the storage .
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Old 17-06-2008, 06:11   #57
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Gideon, with all due repect a boat builder can not be held responsible for what amounts to an Act of God.

For instance, what happens to the state of the art electric propulsion control system when the boat sustains a lightning hit? Everything electronic is toast. It's happened to me.

In my humble opinion, K.I.S.S. should always prevail.
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Old 17-06-2008, 06:16   #58
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1. I can understand the desire for an all-electric boat. But there are two kinds of all electric. The first is using a diesel generator to operated an electric generator to operate an electric motor drive, charge a small bank of batteries and run any electrical appliances needed at the time so they arenít running fully off battery power. When the boat moves the generator runs. This is diesel/electric. The second case uses a large bank of batteries to store power generated from wind, solar, regenerative sail or generator. The boat can operate its electric motors under battery power alone. This is a hybrid. I want to verify you are referring to the latter.

2. I think I understand what you mean concerning the rooms. Your concern is not with the number of rooms but the fact they always bedrooms because the beds are built in. What most people have said is that with production boats, bedrooms are important. I think what hasnít been said so far is the dual or more use for everything on a boat due to space. I knew a couple where the wife was a writer. She had to have a dedicated office. This was fine with the husband since he manages their portfolio of investment properties and the space would be fine with him. So, at substantial expense they converted a forward berth into a small office which was also used for storage. Odd thing is she writes in the saloon. He works either there or at the nav station. The office/storage area is better described as a storage/storage/office area. It would have gotten more use if they converted it to a home dungeon or fornicatorium (ok, maybe that was a little too much information ). Likewise, a friend of mine who is a woodworker modified a berth to be a workbench. But when he is underway the tools get stored, except the vise which is mounted in such a way he canít use it as a sea berth. But he does have space to work Ė as long as the piece isnít too large. Trick is he does most all his work on deck or at the dock because of cleanup involved. The point is they came to solutions which were reasonable but much more for land dwellers than sailors.

3. Keeping #2 in mind, you might wish to review things. You mentioned:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
How many retired cruising couples with 4 cabin boats actually ever sleep 4 bed's worth of people? That's a very expensive and wasteful option to never use.
Which is a good point. But so is a boat that is too large. You have to pay more for everything. Bigger more expensive winches, more fuel, more paint, larger anchor, more insurance due to the higher value, more expensive sail, etc, etc. The trend in boats is like it is in homes. Bigger = Better. As long as you plug in and march in step, youíll be good. But if you are going to question the use of the rooms why not question the whole deal? If you need it, you need it; there is no need to justify it to us. But if you want it just because you have been led to believe it is important (like the Ďneedí for extra berths and heads, then you may wish to examine it more closely. Particularly if you can shave a year off you retirement or have funds for extras.

4. Assuming it is full steam ahead, you mentioned you donít want to spend a small fortune rebuilding the boat. You have a few options. Buy a boat that someone else spent a small fortune rebuilding. Buy a used boat and spend the small fortune you saved on making the modifications you want.

Best of luck
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Old 17-06-2008, 08:18   #59
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1
1. She had to have a dedicated office. This was fine with the husband since he manages their portfolio of investment properties and the space would be fine with him. So, at substantial expense they converted a forward berth into a small office which was also used for storage. Odd thing is 2. she writes in the saloon. He works either there or at the nav station. The office/storage area is better described as a storage/storage/office area. 3. It would have gotten more use if they converted it to a home dungeon or fornicatorium (ok, maybe that was a little too much information ).
A couple of comments.


1. Yep. She had to have.

2. Yep. He probably knew that and told her, but.....back to number 1.

3. Yep. But probably not since the salon and/or the nav station would have worked for that too, but if she had anything to say about it ahead of time.........back to number 1.
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Old 17-06-2008, 16:12   #60
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Actually, Big=Better is slowly becoming out of fashion in homes today. Most of the progressive designers are building smaller sq ft homes with high end detail and fittings. That will be the future of boats also. Unless you are sailing your clan around the world, there is no need for a 45 to 60 foot cat. People are going to start viewing Big=Better as Big=Ridiculous. Just the way they now see such autos such as Hummers and Suburbans. That whole paradigm is changing. The smart designers and builders will start to capitalize on this change in consumer sentiment. It is about quality and efficient use of space. The future for all abodes, whether land or sea, is smaller foot print and less environmental impact. Say you heard it first here. Be a leader, think Small + Quality= Better + Responsible.
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