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Old 15-06-2008, 06:42   #31
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I still don't think the house is a good analogy. A house is not a boat. It doesn't matter so much if I buy a house that was built with 3 BRs cause I can easily NOT put a bed in there. Now I have a shuffleboard room if I want.

I buy a 3 BR (I know) boat and I have 3 BRs no matter what, they are built in to the hull. I am assuming they are. You can't just unfasten a few bolts and pull it out, can you?

How many retired cruising couples with 4 cabin boats actually ever sleep 4 bed's worth of people? That's a very expensive and wasteful option to never use.

I understand the marketing from the builders, but I don't understand the same mentality from sailors. BTW, African Cats has a 2 cabin model. But they use both hulls completely.

TaoJones, I'm looking for all electric.
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Old 15-06-2008, 11:02   #32
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Madwand,

My wife is sure that if she were to (maybe) ever use a catamaran, she wants an extra "bedroom" (or two ) and an extra "bathroom" for visitors and guests and the kids and lord knows who else. Just like the house we have now. I tell her with less room we will be less bothered. She does not agree so guess what.................
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Old 15-06-2008, 11:27   #33
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In every cat I've owned the bed (more properly, berth) has been a four to six inch thick queen size piece of foam laying on the bridgedeck floor. Nothing unbolts, and the space is not really suited for any other human activity; there is usually little more than four feet of headroom. Using the space for anything else but storage is difficult to image, unless you take out the center bulkhead; then you could play ping-pong I guess. Its a waste of space to use the standing headroom parts of the boat for bedding, unless you hide an engine under it.

Madwand: I'm asking for my own understanding: Have you sailed on a cruising catamaran? Have you stayed overnight on a sailboat?
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Old 15-06-2008, 12:40   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
I'm curious to know why you can only get most (if not all?) cats in 3 or 4 cabin configurations? Besides charter, the rest are seemingly built for cruising couples. What use does an older retired couple have for that many cabins where the should be a need for a workshop space and possibly some other type space instead?


I have 12 years till I retire and would like a Lagoon 42 or whatever other hybrid or better that might be available used then. But I will most likely be single and need ONE cabin to sleep in. Not three. This means I will have to find a boat I like and then pay a fortune more to gut and redesign 2 to 3 cabins into something useful.

Why do I appear to be the only person on the planet this applies to?
There must at least be another person since that is the type of cat we build , both the FastCat 405 and the 455 have only 2 cabins to sleep in .
the nice part is these cabins are large and so are the beds .
Most cat builders build hotels since many beds sells better and for a higher price than few cabins , all these builders cater to the charter company,s but a few do not like Gunboat, SMG, African Cats, St Francis and a few more .
My wish list before starting to build a cat was the following

The reason for designing and building the FastCat 435
Seven years ago I started looking to find the perfect Catamaran with the following wish list.
Very comfortable for 4 people to live on for long periods.
2 king sized beds and standing height true out.
Good performance and pointing capability.
Clean uncluttered deck for safety.
360 degrees visibility inside the saloon and in the cockpit
Excellent payload for long trips
Possible to sail single handed.
I came to the conclusions that present Catamarans where very comfortable and good to live on but they where in now way fast.
Some are very fast but no comfort or loading capability at all.
Therefore I decided to develop and built my vision of what the future catamaran should be like.
I noticed that almost all Cats where to heavy and therefore needed a waterline length to width of 1:8 or 1:9 and because of this could never point well or make good speeds.
By decreasing the weight I thought it should be possible to make the waterline length to width ratio 1:12,5 and that is what I did .
I was able to decrease the weight with more then 40 % compared with present day Catamarans by using the most modern techniques available and by carefully watching the weight of everything installed on the boat.
The FastCat 435 is built with the new Vector-K technique:
That is short for Epoxy resin infusion with Kevlar / glass / carbon and Divinycell foam without gellcoat but spray painted in Awl grip 2 component paint.
The result of that is an extremely light laminate (5, 1 kilo per m2) compared with 13 kilo’s for a normal hand laminated boat.
The total weight of the prototype came out below 8 tons in the water or more then 5 tons lighter then any comparable production catamaran in the same size.
I sailed the prototype 19000 NM to see where we could improve on the design, ergonomics, weight, beauty, practicality etc. and averaged over 10 knots on the trip from Durban South Africa via Miami and the Azores to Amsterdam.
Because of this trip we where able to improve the first production 435 and have decreased the total weight with 2 tons to 5987 kilo’s in the water ready to sail and have improved the cat in many other ways as well.( present weight 5000 kilo,s )
Therefore she also has a payload of 5000 kg plus a full tank of water (500 L) and diesel (500 L) according to CE A requirements.
We now have a Catamaran that point’s up to 35 degrees apparent while maintaining good speed while we have reached top speeds of well over 20 knots in flat water on reaches.
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Old 15-06-2008, 19:36   #35
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It was my understanding that a bridgedeck was on the outside of the boat. Why would you have a mattress there? And since you like correcting me so much, Sandy, isn't a floor supposed to be called a deck, thus making "bridgedeck floor" both redundant and ignorant?

No, I have never sailed on a cruising catamaran but I do have eyes and I have seen pictures. I have no need to sail one to know that the following pictures accurately display an insane amount of wasted space:


That's the inside of a Lagoon 420. I don't see the spot you are saying there is no headroom.

Yes, I have stayed overnight on a sailboat. I own 3. I built a 12' fiberglass catboat from scratch, I own a 12' Hobie Bravo, and I own a 19' Com-Pac sloop. The Com-Pac is tiny by comparison, but it has everything, in proportion, that any other sailboat has, except an inboard engine. My berth consists of a 6' long by 4' wide by 3' high space. The boat had 2 other berths that I use for stowage instead since it's ignorant to have 4 berths on a boat that small. What's your point?
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Old 15-06-2008, 20:08   #36
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Dang, a 42 foot cat with an island berth. I'm going to have to check it out.

Along your lines though, if I design a cat, I'm putting in bunks. Probably three staterooms and two bunks. Add that to the two convertible bunks in the forepeaks and it'll sleep 10, perfect for family. Only two heads also, but with real showers. What I want is a mechanical room.
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Old 15-06-2008, 23:00   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
I'm curious to know why you can only get most (if not all?) cats in 3 or 4 cabin configurations? Besides charter, the rest are seemingly built for cruising couples. What use does an older retired couple have for that many cabins where the should be a need for a workshop space and possibly some other type space instead?
I suspect that older cruising couples have grandkids and kids that visit. They also probably aren't in need of a workshop if they've just bought a new 42 foot cat.

One could also argue what does a retired couple need with a 42 foot boat in the first place but who am I to judge them?

My friends Dad (retired) is looking at this exact boat type now. He wants room for the grandkids to visit in the summers.

However, these folks and the charter companies buy new 42 foot cats so that's what a cat builder makes if he wants to stay in business.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
I have 12 years till I retire and would like a Lagoon 42 or whatever other hybrid or better that might be available used then.
So you are looking for someone to buy a single cabin 42 foot catamaran with one berth, a workshop and maybe an office, sail it until you are ready to retire and then sell it to you?

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Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
Why do I appear to be the only person on the planet this applies to?
You seem to be a pretty unique demographic, apparently.

BTW - Welcome aboard the forum. I sense you are frustrated but no need to take it out on us, we're just trying to be friendly by answering your mail. You may not like the answers you get but that's the internet - millions of opinions, all wrong ;-)
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Old 16-06-2008, 05:53   #38
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There are some builders like Dean Catamarans who can pretty much build the interior the way you want it.

Greetz,

Koen
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Old 16-06-2008, 06:40   #39
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Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
That's the inside of a Lagoon 420. I don't see the spot you are saying there is no headroom.
I think you have to get on board a few cruising cats to appreciate what Sandy is talking about. Not all catamarans are Lagoons.

His boat is similar to mine where there is a main cabin forward of the saloon. This cabin is build on the bridgedeck, and headroom is limited. The Lagoon you mention has wider hulls and the photo of the berth you posted was taken in a hull where all cats have maximum headroom.
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Old 16-06-2008, 09:15   #40
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I suspect that older cruising couples have grandkids and kids that visit. They also probably aren't in need of a workshop if they've just bought a new 42 foot cat.
Why not? It will need maintenance.

Quote:
One could also argue what does a retired couple need with a 42 foot boat in the first place but who am I to judge them?
Why not? A ~40 footer will be most stable and sail best on ocean passages.

Quote:
My friends Dad (retired) is looking at this exact boat type now. He wants roo for the grandkids to visit in the summers.
Do they need 3 cabins to sleep in? The saloon will sleep at least two. How many grandkids will he have at the same time? Is it enough to justify having all that wasted space the entire time he owns the boat? He would have to have 8 kids visiting monthly to justify what you are saying. Will he?

Quote:
However, these folks and the charter companies buy new 42 foot cats so that's what a cat builder makes if he wants to stay in business.
I've already acknowledged that. But the only reason people who are not charters buy them is because there is no other option.

Quote:
So you are looking for someone to buy a single cabin 42 foot catamaran with one berth, a workshop and maybe an office, sail it until you are ready to retire and then sell it to you?
Yes. If they sold them in that configuration, that would be entirely reasonable. I realise they don't. I was just asking why since I know that nobody needs that many beds on a non-charter boat.

Quote:
You seem to be a pretty unique demographic, apparently.
I doubt it. How many people on this forum who own cats actually use their 3 extra cabins? And how often? Is it worth having?

Quote:
I sense you are frustrated but no need to take it out on us, we're just trying to be friendly by answering your mail.
I'm not taking anything out on anyone other than replying to the smartass answers I have been given by one person. I didn't ask for that. I asked a reasonable question and gave reasonable reasons for asking it. I prefaced my question with the parameters that the boat was for a cruising COUPLE. Obviously I am not the only person who thinks as I do when their is a major player, i.e. African Cats, who decided they only need to have 2 cabins in a cat.
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Old 16-06-2008, 09:20   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madwand View Post
Why not? It will need maintenance.



Why not? A ~40 footer will be most stable and sail best on ocean passages.



Do they need 3 cabins to sleep in? The saloon will sleep at least two. How many grandkids will he have at the same time? Is it enough to justify having all that wasted space the entire time he owns the boat? He would have to have 8 kids visiting monthly to justify what you are saying. Will he?



I've already acknowledged that. But the only reason people who are not charters buy them is because there is no other option.



Yes. If they sold them in that configuration, that would be entirely reasonable. I realise they don't. I was just asking why since I know that nobody needs that many beds on a non-charter boat.



I doubt it. How many people on this forum who own cats actually use their 3 extra cabins? And how often? Is it worth having?



I'm not taking anything out on anyone other than replying to the smartass answers I have been given by one person. I didn't ask for that. I asked a reasonable question and gave reasonable reasons for asking it. I prefaced my question with the parameters that the boat was for a cruising COUPLE. Obviously I am not the only person who thinks as I do when their is a major player, i.e. African Cats, who decided they only need to have 2 cabins in a cat.
We actually have customers that want the second cabin to be multi purpose so they can use it as a workshed , an office and a bed and this is all possible .

Greetings
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Old 16-06-2008, 09:26   #42
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I think you have to get on board a few cruising cats to appreciate what Sandy is talking about. Not all catamarans are Lagoons.

His boat is similar to mine where there is a main cabin forward of the saloon. This cabin is build on the bridgedeck, and headroom is limited. The Lagoon you mention has wider hulls and the photo of the berth you posted was taken in a hull where all cats have maximum headroom.
I appreciate that, but I am specifically looking at all-electric boats, which is why I mentioned the Lagoon 420 and showed pix of it I can't find any similar pix of African Cats interiors or I would have used them too. They may be as he described. I don't know. But I really like their idea of self-sufficient sailing. I don't like the fact that their second cabin also seems to be full hull. I think that one full hull suite and one smaller half-hull cabin would be sufficient for most people.

I have never seen any cat cabin that had only 4' headroom. What do you do, crawl into it on your belly?
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Old 16-06-2008, 10:05   #43
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We actually have customers that want the second cabin to be multi purpose so they can use it as a workshed , an office and a bed and this is all possible .
Just the fact that the owner of a catamaran company is actively hanging out in a user forum and listening tells me that when the time comes I may actually be able to find something close to what it is I am looking for.
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Old 16-06-2008, 10:22   #44
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I appreciate that, but I am specifically looking at all-electric boats, which is why I mentioned the Lagoon 420 and showed pix of it I can't find any similar pix of African Cats interiors or I would have used them too. They may be as he described. I don't know. But I really like their idea of self-sufficient sailing. I don't like the fact that their second cabin also seems to be full hull. I think that one full hull suite and one smaller half-hull cabin would be sufficient for most people.

I have never seen any cat cabin that had only 4' headroom. What do you do, crawl into it on your belly?
We sit up in bed.

Incidently, you're going from a daysailor experience to a boat that is the size of a small condo. You haven't mentioned your experience at sea keeping or docking a boat of this class, not to mention the considerable repairs that are always necessary. Then again, a guy who's going to plunk down $600,000 to $1,200,000 is probably going to hire a captain to cart him around and have an on call repair team available at all times.

If not, I'd graduate boat sizes incrementally.
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Old 16-06-2008, 10:40   #45
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>>I'm not taking anything out on anyone other than replying to the smartass answers I have been given by one person. I didn't ask for that. I asked a reasonable question and gave reasonable reasons for asking it. I prefaced my question with the parameters that the boat was for a cruising COUPLE. Obviously I am not the only person who thinks as I do when their is a major player, i.e. African Cats, who decided they only need to have 2 cabins in a cat.<<

And if there is a large demand for 2 cabin cats, African Cats will be in the money. If not, they will discontinue the design.

As for your question being reasonable...it isn't. Honestly, it is a kind of 'pissing in the wind' question. I want to know why they don't make a 40 ft boat with a washer, dryer, and 42" plasma equipped media room that sails itself for $25,000. Hey, I bet there would be a market for THAT!! What answer can there be? They would make two cabin cats with workrooms if there was a big demand for them. That's their job. Making and then SELLING boats. They would make boats with no cabins and that were ALL work space if there was a market for them. They will build what they think they can sell. African Cat thinks they can sell enough two cabin boats to make it worth it. Good for them. Maybe they will. I am sure other builders will keep an eye on the success of that line of boats and respond accordingly.

>>I think that one full hull suite and one smaller half-hull cabin would be sufficient for most people.<<

Here's what I can't understand...WHY do you feel that what you 'think' matters to anybody but yourself? Why can't you consider from the fact that nobody here and there is only one catamaran builder ON EARTH that agrees with you that there should be fewer berths in a cat, that you might be WRONG? And as for being a smartass, jeez man, come on! You have overreacted obnoxiously every time anybody has said the slightest thing you didn't like. From reading this thread for the past few days, I think I understand why you don't need space for extra PEOPLE on your cat.

Sorry board, I know I am new here and everybody else seems to have been able to stay really civil...but DAMN.
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