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Old 20-08-2016, 20:37   #61
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

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Originally Posted by Redreuben View Post
I am not trolling I am trying to keep this thread on topic, I appreciate your contribution and am enthusiastic about the technology you are supporting.
This thread however is under Multihull Sailboats, which you clearly have no interest in. So I would suggest if you want to explore your topic further you take it to powered boats which yours clearly is.
Best Wishes.
RR
Actually I really don't appreciate your tone. You were asked politely to retract to which you come back at me. My boat is a sailboat. My conversation and contributions are valid here and I will continue to stay on topic using my boat as an example or otherwise mast on it right now or not. The Title of the thread is about pocket cruising catamarans. I've been on topic aside from your trolling to which at this point you have conceded you are. Now either stay on topic or don't continue to troll me. Take your pick.
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Old 20-08-2016, 20:39   #62
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

My tone ? Now thats funny.
bye bye.
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Old 20-08-2016, 20:55   #63
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

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SNIP

The Title of the thread is about pocket cruising catamarans.

SNIP
With the implication of a pocket cruising catamaran being a budget boat. It is hard for me to see any aluminum cat with lipo batteries and electric motors selling for less than six figures and most likely more.

It is fairly easy to find a nice small fboat for less than half of that and some of the earlier, and smaller, Farriers less than that. Not to mention you can put these boats on a street legal trailer to reduce storage cost even more and There are even less expensive small cats ready to go that come in at less than $US20,000. Hard to see how your idea for a pocket cruiser would have an attractive price point
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Old 20-08-2016, 21:08   #64
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

Yes from further research and the insight from this thread as I wrote in a previous reply pocket cruising catamarans are a thing of the past. Can't be constructed from aluminum except by a few designers currently building or home built.

Then that was the reason I didn't hesitate to purchase used. There simply are not many around. I'm sure as you say they would want hundreds of thousands of dollars for new construction with new technology.

I did find this thread extremely helpful in examining the OP's question though especially the one by DerekKelsail. Would love to hear the cons and pros of ALUMINIUM vs FIBERGLASS catamaran Sailboat
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Old 20-08-2016, 21:10   #65
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

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bye bye.
Lets hope so.
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Old 21-08-2016, 04:31   #66
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

PacificGreen:

I think you missed the point.

I was showing how absurdly expensive your propulsion system was and you responded by replacing a major component with one that is twice as expensive.

All this with very limited performance. From a marketing perspective, the electric drivetrain, you have is a non-starter for a production boat builder. It's fine as an experiment where you don't care about the time and complication to install along with the high cost but no way to translate that into a practical drivetrain. It gets even worse in an exponential way as you move up into larger boats.
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Old 21-08-2016, 17:14   #67
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

No I got the point. Aluminum hull custom construction and electric propulsion will not make pocket cruising catamarans popular for any number of the stated reasons.
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Old 26-08-2016, 11:16   #68
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

I'm new here and don't have a lot of sailing experience other than the little Hobie cats. Pretty much working on getting myself educated enough and potentially experienced enough before buying my own cruiser cat in 5-10 years.

When I hear pocket cats I think of something in the 26' to 30' range that may have accommodations for 3-5 people, 1 head, and very limited food preparation area.

But as far as why I think we don't see a lot of pocket cats, particularly here in the US, is all in the customer the sales force is targeting. They are targeting the guy making well into the 6 figure range looking for a status symbol or the guy that has built up a really good retirement fund to finally fulfill his dreams in retirement. They are not targeting the guy making 50K to 100K a year and only getting 2-4 weeks of vacation to use the boat in a year or the retiree that is getting over half their retirement income from SSN. The second group has realized more catamarans are available on the used boat market and these boats are built a lot more durable than they were initially. To build a pocket cruiser that you could make a profit on you would have to compete against a 10-20 year old 35' to 40' catamaran in price for the comfort. That would mean your entry level pricing would have to be in the low $100,000 or less here in the US. I understand dock fees and insurance, but once your already into something for more than you make in a year as a hobby, this is pretty much what you are going to be doing with your time off anyway.

I would love to find a little 26 footer that I could sale on the lakes that had a dinette that would convert into a double bed, a single head, and small kitchen my wife and I could sail on the weekends in relative comfort, but it is difficult to justify over $100,000 dollars on a used boat and $10,000+ more a year for dock fees, winter haul outs, winter storage, and basic maintenance, when I can take 2 weeks of vacation in the winter and charter a relatively new bare boat 35+ catamaran out of Florida for $12,000 for 2 weeks. Now when I retire and can spend 6 months a year on my boat the whole economics thing changes!

Just .02 cents from someone new.
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Old 26-08-2016, 12:40   #69
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

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ISNIP

I would love to find a little 26 footer that I could sale on the lakes that had a dinette that would convert into a double bed, a single head, and small kitchen my wife and I could sail on the weekends in relative comfort, but it is difficult to justify over $100,000 dollars on a used boat and $10,000+ more a year for dock fees, winter haul outs, winter storage, and basic maintenance, when I can take 2 weeks of vacation in the winter and charter a relatively new bare boat 35+ catamaran out of Florida for $12,000 for 2 weeks. Now when I retire and can spend 6 months a year on my boat the whole economics thing changes!

Just .02 cents from someone new.
Look at several of the fboats. The C27/28 are less than $US100,000 the C24 (and off shoots) much less; even the C31 is often less that $US100,000. All are capable of week end cruising in reasonable comfort, faster than just about anything you will come across, easy to take apart and put together, will trailer behind fairly modest vehicles, and hold their value well. While I would not want to live on one for six months at a time there are folks who do just that.
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Old 26-08-2016, 14:07   #70
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

There are people crossing oceans on small Wharrams, little Catalacs, sub-30ft Woods cats and any number of the Heavenly Twins range, some of which are centre cockpits and still below 30ft. From what i have seen these boats also sell pretty quickly as they are very affordable whilst being very capable. You read of people criticising these boats because they dont have huge load capacity but they are sufficient for the needs of the owners that are actually cruising rather than sitting in an armchair telling everyone what they they should be doing. I saw one of the Heavenly Twins cats (I think 26ft) in a harbour several years ago that was 2/3 of the way through a circumnavigation and after going on board I came away pretty impressed. These boats are also pretty cheap to buy, small enough to be trucked across land masses where convenient and yet are able to cross oceans. These are not for me (I am too big) but they certainly can fill a niche market. A decent HT will cost around US$30,000. See this article:
https://killikstoker.wordpress.com/


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Look at several of the fboats. The C27/28 are less than $US100,000 the C24 (and off shoots) much less; even the C31 is often less that $US100,000. All are capable of week end cruising in reasonable comfort, faster than just about anything you will come across, easy to take apart and put together, will trailer behind fairly modest vehicles, and hold their value well. While I would not want to live on one for six months at a time there are folks who do just that.
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Old 26-08-2016, 14:29   #71
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

Yes, there are small catamarans that cross oceans (even beach cats) but they are few in the overall stable and high flow of small and big monos and mostly 40'+ cats.

Of all the ones that we met only one crossed an ocean (a Heavenly Twins - like boat under a Swedish couple). I also recall one Catalac that sailed at least from Canary Islands to Asia.

We have a friend who built and sailed a Tiki but he did convert to a mono (he is the only convert this way we know) and now he is sailing his rtw in a small mono (Martin Dolecek, googlable, now in AUS).

I think small catamarans are great local cruising boats and I would not be too scared to cross an easy ocean in one but I would not say they are overly popular ocean crossing tool.

Maybe the minimalistic interior volume plays a role. Or maybe the fact that they are very light boats. They are not expensive and one could think they should be more popular with young dreamers on a budget.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 26-08-2016, 15:22   #72
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pirate re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

Rosie Swale-Pope springs to mind when small cats are discussed.. apart from being the 1st woman to solo the Atlantic in a small boat.. she and her husband were the first couple to circumnavigate a small ply (30ft) Bobcat round the world and the first catamaran to sail via Cape Horn.. quite a woman all in all..

Rosie Swale-Pope
MBE, born 2 October 1946, is an author, adventurer and marathon runner, who was the first woman to sail single-handed across the Atlantic in a small boat, trekked 3,000 miles alone through Chile on horseback, and successfully completed a five-year around-the-world run, raising £250,000 for a charity that supports orphaned children in Russia[1] and to highlight the importance of early diagnosis of prostate cancer. Starting on 2 October 2003, her 57th birthday, Swale-Pope survived nearly freezing to death and being run down by a bus before returning to Tenby in Wales on crutches because of stress fractures on 25 August 2008, having worn out 53 pairs of running shoes.

Beginning in December 1971, Rosie sailed around the world from Gibraltar via Australia with her first husband Colin Swale and daughter Eve on their 30-foot catamaran, the Anneliese. The trip was part sponsored by the Daily Mail newspaper and also by Independent Television News (ITN) who provided them with a camera to record their own news reports of the journey. Sailing 30,000 miles across the Atlantic, through the Panama Canal and across the Pacific, stopping at the Galapagos Islands, the Marquesas, Tahiti and Tonga before reaching Australia in 1973. They were the first catamaran to round Cape Horn.
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Old 25-09-2016, 02:10   #73
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
There are people crossing oceans on small Wharrams, little Catalacs, sub-30ft Woods cats and any number of the Heavenly Twins range, some of which are centre cockpits and still below 30ft. From what i have seen these boats also sell pretty quickly as they are very affordable whilst being very capable. You read of people criticising these boats because they dont have huge load capacity but they are sufficient for the needs of the owners that are actually cruising rather than sitting in an armchair telling everyone what they they should be doing. I saw one of the Heavenly Twins cats (I think 26ft) in a harbour several years ago that was 2/3 of the way through a circumnavigation and after going on board I came away pretty impressed. These boats are also pretty cheap to buy, small enough to be trucked across land masses where convenient and yet are able to cross oceans. These are not for me (I am too big) but they certainly can fill a niche market. A decent HT will cost around US$30,000. See this article:
https://killikstoker.wordpress.com/

Totally correct. I'd like to add that 25 years ago small was considered wise for cruise sailing yachts, I am sure we know about sailors I am talikng about. It is recent that the emphasis of cruise yachting has been shaped by the commercial yacht producers
who needed to sell bigger for more! Not that bigger is better necessarily. I admit a 40 foot cat is very attractive to me but my purpose of on the hook coastal cruising with few passages over extended periods, years, taught me that my 34 foot cat is actually a blessibg for affordable independent cruising which is exactly what I am doing, closest marina to my cruising ground of North Mozambique more tham 1000km away.
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Old 25-09-2016, 05:17   #74
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

I do think that the lagoons and FPs of the world don't make pocket cruiser (and note I used both words to imply something a bit bigger than what "pocket" would have implied alone) because they need the charter market to support their sales and charter companies would not be interested. evidence that there are few geminis in charter compared to FPs. but that said, Gemini sells a lot of boats!!! thus my surprise no one would take them on and make a viable modern competitor.
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Old 25-09-2016, 05:33   #75
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re: Why little popularity in pocket cruising catamarans?

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I do think that the lagoons and FPs of the world don't make pocket cruiser (and note I used both words to imply something a bit bigger than what "pocket" would have implied alone) because they need the charter market to support their sales and charter companies would not be interested. evidence that there are few geminis in charter compared to FPs. but that said, Gemini sells a lot of boats!!! thus my surprise no one would take them on and make a viable modern competitor.
I have taken a gentle stroll down this route.

Unless a company is going to purchase molds of an existing Catamaran, the start up costs are large. The most compelling reason NOT to do it is the design.

At this point in time, given what is available in established Catamarans, it would take an amazing designer to produce a Cat to appeal to a mass market first time around. Then, following on from that, there is the tooling costs, the testing costs and the time involved in getting started. The first few Cats produced (assuming the model sold) would be expensive. Hugely so.

What is the price break to make a new catamaran appealing? How long before profit showed its head? How much change out of 10 million would there be to start up a production run?

Yes individual Cats could be made. Expensive and little profit.

It seems to me that the only way is to have an established name make a new design and utilise all the experience, contacts and facilities they have and push hard. It will still cost a lot of money.

If the design is not good........ all the money is wasted.

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