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Old 07-06-2016, 12:48   #61
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

SVNeko,

Thanks,

Now I'm beginning to understand.

One more question related to main sail battens:

We just purchased a new main sail with verticle battens for our Selden furling mast. Haven't tried it out yet, but the sail fit inside the mast the same as before even though it's 15% larger. Seems to furl just fine. Would vetical battens work on a catamaran to help solve the performance issue regarding a furling mast? Aside from the weight issue which I now understand. Maybe for some cruisers less interested in performance and needing a little physical assist to keep them in the game longer?

Are powercats as sensitive to the weight issue? Something like the Fountaine Pajot 47 which recently caught my eye.
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:51   #62
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AD28 View Post
aw geez, I'll chime in:

Extra weight in general on cats changes the behavior of the cat in all conditions. Pitching, sluggish response, poor sailing. Even or maybe especially as a cruiser you'd rather sail than motor, yes?

Extra weight aloft changes the heeling moment, and a furling main would certainly add weight aloft.

A furling main, regardless of which boat it's on, adds an extra dimension of failure mode. YMMV, but I wouldn't have a furling main, and I don't think I'd care for a furling boom either. Simple is best.

I think it's already been mentioned that the furling main would certainly be a performance loss. The mast section would certainly be heavier, the rig for the furling main would be heavier, and the sail itself would have to be cut for the furl, which I expect would eliminate battens, big roach and elliptical/square head. The weight of the smaller main may well balance the extra weight of the equipment, come to think.

People who like catamarans generally want performance, and weight and complexity would compromise performance. Just because I'm cruising doesn't mean I don't want my boat to perform as best it can, within reasonable constraints. If I want a heavy slow pig I'd just get a leaner.

does this answer your questions? Or is this thread just another troll from the leaner peanut gallery?
Thanks for taking the time to explain. The only way we can learn is to ask questions.

Ken
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Old 07-06-2016, 13:00   #63
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

Delete the full main big roach mainsail in Lagoon 380 and install a inmast furling... what you get? A pig...
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Old 07-06-2016, 16:37   #64
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Would vetical battens work on a catamaran to help solve the performance issue regarding a furling mast?
To the extent they give roach back, yes. Catamarans love a big roach just because they can. No backstay makes it easy.
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Old 07-06-2016, 17:56   #65
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

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Originally Posted by Catalysis View Post
Antares sell about 50:50 conventional and furling mains.
Reports from owners on passages show little difference in passage times between the two.
The conventionally rigged boats were slightly faster but reefed earlier, the furled boats furled later and unfurled earlier.
A wash overall.

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Catalysis, just to get a point of reference how is your boats' main set up, what is the size (sq ft) and what is the cloth?
I have seen Antares44's with conventional, slab reefing,full battens and a canoe boom as well those with in boom furling.
The canoe boom is becoming very popular with large Cat mains and does offer a more contained, controlled approach as well as reducing the size of the stackpack.

Bob
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Old 07-06-2016, 18:16   #66
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Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

Bob,
My previous boat was a slab reefed Antares 44 and I shared some in-mast versus conventional reefed boats data.

My new boat, under construction is a St Francis 50 on which I am installing in-boom furling due to its larger size. New Mainsail area is 950 sq ft - we are using Hydranet.


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Old 07-06-2016, 18:46   #67
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

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Bob,
My previous boat was a slab reefed Antares 44 and I shared some in-mast versus conventional reefed boats data.

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Is the in-mast versus conventional reefed boats data in this thread and is the in-mast data about a Cat main?

Bob
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Old 07-06-2016, 19:07   #68
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

I found your data on reply 15 which I did see earlier but my question to you is directed towards the Antares 44 not your new St Francis 50 in build.

Bob
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Old 07-06-2016, 19:08   #69
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

I don't know why you blokes are arguing. It HAS been spelled out in this thread...whether you choose to accept that is up to you. Also, the weighting you put on the reasoning is an individual thing.

In summary:
1. In mast furling keeps weight aloft not only in the sail but also the mast itself and equipment need to be larger than otherwise creating more windage as well as adding weight
2. In-mast furling means no horizontal battens giving a poor sail shape and therefore performance. Cats are largely mainsail driven.
3. Adds complexity/more things to go wrong and expense. I don't believe that in any sailboat you want to get caught out with your main up in nasty conditions, for fairly obvious reasons.
4. Point 3. Stands for boom furling as well but is mitigated by still being able to drop the main on the deck.

Compared to a standard main, lazy jacks and boom bag I just don't see the need given that raising, reefing and lowering the main isn't really an issue. I think that's equally applicable to monos. In my opinion you'd be better served by an electric halyard winch.

More interesting to me is the concept of the rotating mast but I'm not convinced their benefits outweigh their disadvantages on a cruising boat either. They do have the 'sexy factor' though.

It's all very subjective, in my opinion, and individual preferences/leanings will win the day.






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Old 07-06-2016, 19:24   #70
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Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

REsCat,
You can find information on the Antares 44 at the liveantares.com website.
We absolutely loved our A-44 which we owned for seven years, we decided on a larger boat for hosting kids and grandkids. As we age we are looking at more leverage through equipment like in-boom roller furling, electric winches etc.
I'm pretty much done with this thread now.



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Old 07-06-2016, 19:42   #71
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

As we age we gravitate towards a smaller boat with less loads. Really nice to have the furling main and electric winches but what happens when the $hit hits the fan? If we can't handle it manually we really don't want it on the boat.


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Old 07-06-2016, 20:01   #72
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

Maybe I can summarise this thread:

Q: Why don't Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails.
A: Because most catamaran owners don't want furling main sails.
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Old 08-06-2016, 04:25   #73
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

Quote:
In summary:
1. In mast furling keeps weight aloft not only in the sail but also the mast itself and equipment need to be larger than otherwise creating more windage as well as adding weight
While I quite agree with your conclusions, I don't think the above is quite correct with respect to weight aloft IN THE SAIL. The upper portions of an in mast furling main are considerably lighter than a roachy topped sail with numerous long battens. The reason, of course, is that the upper part of the sail is much smaller and battens, even carbon battens, are heavy.

The in mast mast section is indeed heavier, the furling gear is heavy and in general will cause an over all reduction in performance. for some, the convenience is worth the hit, for others, not so. Take your pick...

Jim
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Old 08-06-2016, 17:17   #74
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

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While I quite agree with your conclusions, I don't think the above is quite correct with respect to weight aloft IN THE SAIL. The upper portions of an in mast furling main are considerably lighter than a roachy topped sail with numerous long battens. The reason, of course, is that the upper part of the sail is much smaller and battens, even carbon battens, are heavy.

The in mast mast section is indeed heavier, the furling gear is heavy and in general will cause an over all reduction in performance. for some, the convenience is worth the hit, for others, not so. Take your pick...

Jim
Hi Jim,

If there's a sail wrapped up in the mast it weighs more up there than a sail in a sail bag on the boom. I'm not sure it's really a consideration when the sail is up and you're sailing. Presenting more windage and having more weight aloft when the wind really picks up, and sails are down or furled, raises your centre of gravity and is an extra risk factor for any boat. Any sailboat can be knocked down or capsized. Some have more weight and windage than others, it depends on the particular design a a host of other factors.

I'm just trying to explain the consideration from a cat persons point of view.

Cheers,

TP
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Old 08-06-2016, 19:45   #75
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Re: Why Don"t Most Catamarans Come with Furling Main Sails?

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If there's a sail wrapped up in the mast it weighs more up there than a sail in a sail bag on the boom.
Hey, TP, that's for sure! I thought we were discussing factors that impacted sailing performance. At any rate, I think it is quite clear that the answer to Kenomac's query is that cat owners don't want roller mains, so they don't buy them!

And the same is true for a good many of us monophiles!

Jim
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