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Old 02-03-2015, 09:27   #121
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
"Quick yachtworld search, I see a 2011 Lagoon 450 owners version near us with genset, AC, genset, electric winches, and washer/dryer. Looks pricey (asking), but it's also relatively new."

That boat in Pasadena, MD is on the list, at the top of the price column. It does make an interesting comparison.
If you are still even considering a Lagoon at this point, then it strikes me that you have not narrowed your search enough. Adagio is a different beast entirely, and you will realize this when you sail her. If you ask me, you are getting too analytical about it all and not listening to your heart enough.
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:29   #122
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

A very wise man once said:

"Do not fall in love with a boat until after you've purchased it."
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:44   #123
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I think (FWIW) you have most of what you need to make a good choice:
= this boat does this

Sailing/exploring
- Florida Keys
- Bahamas
- Turks and Caicos
- Georgia and South Carolina
This boat will do that!

Reasons for wanting:
- My knees are shot and I want a flat stable platform
- My wife is a neat freak and insists on clothes washer and dryer
- I read & she watches TV so we need widely separated personal space
- My wife loves to cook and is very good at it so a big galley is essential
- My wife will never have a top loader refrigerator again. To even suggest one would be a just cause for divorce
- I still love to sail and want a boat with decent performance off the wind
- We know that most of our cruising/sailing is in areas with lighter winds
- We do a lot of bicycle riding and need to carry several in easy, dry storage
- I like working on boat stuff and need a good workshop
- I do a lot of computer stuff and need a dedicated computer desk
- We want a big outside living area with a big table
- We want room to have Air Conditioning
This Boat does all of the above!!

My wife refuses to consider a trawler. She really wants a catamaran with room to roam, wash clothes, and bake cookies. She wants to put up some sail, cruise along at 7-knots on a broad reach, and enjoy the view.

Here are our concerns:

ME (the Old Tired Sailor)
- Will the saildrives last and/or cost a fortune in the next 10-years - I think you answered that when you said you were over thinking it. Therefore
- Is the boat too much for me (OTS) to handle at sea - You say you're only travelling up to 70 miles per stint.. worst case scenario she uses the electric winch, lowers the sails, motors to next destination where you chill out, wrap the sails up for good and use it as a motor cruiser with her driving and you sipping beer -
- Is the hydraulic steering with no linkage between the rudders OK - Good enough me thinks but is the worry a dealbreaker?

WIFE
- How much will we lose when we sell the boat in 8 to 10 years - More than you'd like but all being well you'll not loose too much front end if you negotiate hard..
- How will I handle the boat if something happens to OTS - See "Is the boat too much for me?"

BOTH of US
- No visibility forward from the cockpit except from raised helm seat - Is this a dealbreaker? If so look elsewhere and stop dreaming!
- Limited availability of haulout facilities - Is THIS a dealbreaker? if so move on. I think probably not or you wouldn't be looking at this size in the first place.. Also (me thinks) as time goes on more and more places will accept bigger boats.. the trend is towards bigger!
- Sofa/Table in salon takes up too much room - Buy a new smaller table!
- Limited dockage options when we leave boat for extended periods - Limited and more costly but not impossible..
- There are a lot of production cats in the 45’+ range that fit our needs - but do they fit your DESIRES?

I’ve created a spreadsheet of catamarans for sale that meet these criteria:
- 40 to 55 feet with dedicated “owners” hull / cabin
- Fewer than 3,000 engine hours
- No more than 16 years old (year 1999 to current)
- Between $275,000 and $575,00

The catamaran must also have at least four of the following items installed:
- Watermaker
- Generator
- Air Conditioning
- Electric winches
- Spinnaker
- Gennaker

Personally I'd purchase Adagio in San Diego for the “right” price but be prepared to look at others if he doesn't play ball. Then..
Buy a bigger Anchor.. sail to Florida and the Bahamas.
Worry about your knees later.. enjoy life.. its your ambition and probably has been for many years.. why crock now?

IMO of course!
Great Thread tho and best of luck
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:54   #124
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Totally agree w/ Training Wheels. For what you are going to invest ,and with your wife's concern of what you might lose in 10 years, charter a similar big cat. For the $10 grand you might spend doing this she might find her concerns 10 years downline are mute compared to the amount of enjoyment you will receive.
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Old 02-03-2015, 12:56   #125
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I love this thread!

You're "in play", how cool is that! And sounds like with a willing partner.

If you google "ohanacharters" you'll see some pics of our last cat. Like you we had the decision to purchase this 50' one off cat or a production model, the Catana 470 was our choice. We went with Ohana as just was significantly less expensive as much larger.

We had the opportunity after 7 years of sailing Ohana to "borrow" a friends Catana 470 for three months of non stop sailing in the Bahamas. The Catana sailed like a dream but at the end of the day I was reassured we made the right decision to get our one off oddball. End of my "self talk" :-)

One other note the comments from the others contributers in this thread have a lot of great advice. How cool!

Have you made an offer on the cat in San Diego to "test the waters"? Something based in the reality of your alternatives that the owner can really chew on? You mention you like lists and a comprehensive list of the boats available, their asking prices and condition might be what he needs to get down to the market.

There will be back and forth on big cats, what is "real" cruising, limitations, etc. At the end of the day it's your boat and your experience. I love that you spelled out all so clearly. When I first pulled Ohana out of the slip at Palm Harbour in West Palm she felt like driving a football field. After not too long she became one of the easiest boats I've every maneuvered in very tight spaces. We NEVER had a problem finding haulout facilities or docks. The one mistake I made early on was calling ahead for a slip (at West End in the Bahamas) from outside of the marina. They said "No" and we anchored outside and came in by dinghy later that evening. The place was wide open. From then on we would generally enter marinas, maneuver around while the dockmaster could see us and always seemed to find space (politely of course). This was one of the big concerns as I've heard voiced here. Our experience was pretty positive. Also sounds like the cat you are looking at can be dryed out on her keels. We could do the same and did so several times to clean the bottom, replace a bad depth sounder and clean the props.

Sail drives, We had SD20s and the oil always became a little milky. That being said just serviced them at each haulout (18 month average cycle) which included replacing the o rings et al.

I've never made the trip from Ca to Panama but did spend over a year in the Western Caribbean. The bay islands of Honduras, up the Rio Dulce (awesome), Belize and Mexico (Puerto Aventuras was our base for quite awhile with the girls going to school there). I will say that doing it on a cat was comfortable. It is just so different from a mono (didn't say better, just different).

The sailing of a cat is nothing like a monohull. Monohull are more fun to sail in my opinion. That being said for long distance and living aboard can't beat. The mainsail size when we bought Ohana didn't bother me with no elec winch. I was 38 then. By 48 when we sold I would have loved an elec mainsail winch! Keep in mind.

Plenty of great boats in Florida, also have you considered looking down island? Trinidad, Grenada, St Maartin, Virgin Islands. Nice sail downwind back to the States and some opportunities from those who have made the Atlantic crossing and decided not to continue.

I better get to work :-) Look forward to following your adventures and all the best!
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Old 02-03-2015, 13:55   #126
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
"Quick yachtworld search, I see a 2011 Lagoon 450 owners version near us with genset, AC, genset, electric winches, and washer/dryer. Looks pricey (asking), but it's also relatively new."

That boat in Pasadena, MD is on the list, at the top of the price column. It does make an interesting comparison. We have visited two different L 450s and my wife loves the interior. She would be very happy to buy one.

Let's look at some comparisons that bother me:

So - the L450 will need at least $15,000 of equipment additions that is already installed on Adagio.

My bottom line on the L450 is
- Ugly
- Questionable light wind sailing performance
- I can not picture myself sailing from that elevated helm

BUT - the possibility of getting a really good price on a Lagoon 440/450, such as the 2009 L440 in Savannah for $490,000 does make it hard to commit to the Brazzapi 51.

Yep, not far from here. Thought it had a gennaker, but maybe not spinnaker... In any case, I didn't mean it as a serious competitor, just as an example of a big cat that might not have everything you want at the time of purchase... but could have that stuff later. Yes, cost-comparisons matter and that'd end up being (eventual negotiated) initial purchase price plus all the stuff. Anyway, might be others out there where you can add stuff if necessary.

I'm not competent about sailing performance, but ugly should be a deal-breaker. Cross off all the ugly candidates and your short list will be much shorter.


OTOH, does wifey like the Lagoon better than Adagio?


-Chris
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Old 02-03-2015, 15:09   #127
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Tacomo
"- I come up with outrageous ideas
- She tells me how dumb are my ideas
- We discuss my dumbness
- I determine her essential concerns
- I modify my ideas
- She learns more about the "goodness" of my idea
- That process goes on and on
- I eventually figure out her non-negotiable issues
- I determine how to change my ideas to accommodate those issues
- WHEN I am sure I have addressed those issues I MAKE THE DECISION"

My wife asked if I wrote that. We've been married 52 years.
Great formula that works. Its how I got my 1st boat, a 45ft ketch.

I think you're almost there. Put in the offer you think is right.
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Old 02-03-2015, 18:51   #128
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
Tacomo
"- I come up with outrageous ideas
- She tells me how dumb are my ideas
- We discuss my dumbness
- I determine her essential concerns
- I modify my ideas
- She learns more about the "goodness" of my idea
- That process goes on and on
- I eventually figure out her non-negotiable issues
- I determine how to change my ideas to accommodate those issues
- WHEN I am sure I have addressed those issues I MAKE THE DECISION"

My wife asked if I wrote that. We've been married 52 years.
Great formula that works. Its how I got my 1st boat, a 45ft ketch.

I think you're almost there. Put in the offer you think is right.
DumnMad has it right. You've got the right negotiating strategy and you're getting close, very close. You'll know when you're there. You're wife married an impetuous guy (a bit impetuous herself?). You wouldn't be the guy she married if you didn't do this stuff.

And FWIW, if I didn't have a boat, my wife would have a different husband.

Joe
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Old 02-03-2015, 19:29   #129
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Okay, remember, opinions are like........but, here we go! I thought about, and here's what I think. Sounds like you're better suited for the Lagoon. If you were stressing between Adagio and an Outremer or Scionning, or even a Catana, I could get that. But, a Lagoon? You say you'd be happy with a trawler. So, with a Lagoon, you're gonna be motoring in light wind or upwind. You'd be motoring in a trawler, right? And lagoons make great motorsailers. Got a nice reach? You're sailing, and Lagoons reach well. Got a wife who's a penny pincher? Let me tell you from experience, if you want to go fast, you have to spend the money. No Dacron sails, gotta be laminates. Gotta buy the lightest of everything. Dyneema is your friend. If you're not willing to do that, don't bother getting a high performance multi. But, just my opinion.......


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Old 02-03-2015, 20:57   #130
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Catana 471 in Cali listed today. No generator or aircon and I think the price is high but it is a C471 just like 2Hulls.
2001 Catana 471 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 02-03-2015, 21:30   #131
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Catana 471 in Cali listed today. No generator or aircon and I think the price is high but it is a C471 just like 2Hulls.
2001 Catana 471 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com


Thanks for bringing the boat to my attention.

What would be the advantage of buying the Catana 471?
- four years older
- no engine hours listed
- needs generator (if we install AirCon)
- needs aircon
- list price is $14,000 more

So - I'd end up spending at least $15,000 on upgrades to get an older boat that needs a lot of work

I do like the Catanas - we almost purchased a 42 in 2001 but wanted to stick with the boat we knew.

Maybe I am missing something here? Why would this Catana be a better choice?
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Old 02-03-2015, 21:42   #132
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

"Sounds like you're better suited for the Lagoon. If you were stressing between Adagio and an Outremer or Scionning, or even a Catana, I could get that. But, a Lagoon? You say you'd be happy with a trawler. So, with a Lagoon, you're gonna be motoring in light wind or upwind."

And that is the dilemma! If I were really practical I would agree with you and admit a Lagoon 440 is a better choice. Your analysis is exactly correct... EXCEPT

Adagio motors faster, on less fuel, at lower RPMs.
Adagio will sail sooner and faster in light winds

Adagio is way more cool, unique, and suits my attitude about life and sailing.

I am trying hard to act like a grown-up and make the "correct practical" choice rather than the fun and interesting choice.

As this discussion continues I am coming more and more to the realization that I need to jump at the chance to buy a nice and unique boat.
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Old 02-03-2015, 23:00   #133
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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I'm not competent about sailing performance, but ugly should be a deal-breaker. Cross off all the ugly candidates and your short list will be much shorter.
Couldn't agree more. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder...but Lagoons are FUGLY.....sorry. I don't care how roomy they are.....
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Old 02-03-2015, 23:08   #134
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
"Sounds like you're better suited for the Lagoon. If you were stressing between Adagio and an Outremer or Scionning, or even a Catana, I could get that. But, a Lagoon? You say you'd be happy with a trawler. So, with a Lagoon, you're gonna be motoring in light wind or upwind."

And that is the dilemma! If I were really practical I would agree with you and admit a Lagoon 440 is a better choice. Your analysis is exactly correct... EXCEPT

Adagio motors faster, on less fuel, at lower RPMs.
Adagio will sail sooner and faster in light winds

Adagio is way more cool, unique, and suits my attitude about life and sailing.

I am trying hard to act like a grown-up and make the "correct practical" choice rather than the fun and interesting choice.

As this discussion continues I am coming more and more to the realization that I need to jump at the chance to buy a nice and unique boat.
Offer a price you'd be REALLY happy to get her for! What's the worst that can happen?
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Old 03-03-2015, 00:21   #135
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
[B][I]

Adagio motors faster, on less fuel, at lower RPMs.
Adagio will sail sooner and faster in light winds

Adagio is way more cool, unique, and suits my attitude about life and sailing.

I am trying hard to act like a grown-up and make the "correct practical" choice rather than the fun and interesting choice.

As this discussion continues I am coming more and more to the realization that I need to jump at the chance to buy a nice and unique boat.
JUMP - TACO - JUMP
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