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Old 01-03-2015, 17:33   #106
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Stupid question...Why have you ruled out boats in Europe?...unless getting the boat to the Caribbean is too much of a hassle or expense.

I'm thinking the falling Euro would be a good thing for an American buyer.
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Old 01-03-2015, 19:21   #107
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Originally Posted by Training Wheels View Post
TS, the problem is you really don't know what you want. You say you want a performance boat, and then say you'd be happy with a trawler, that it's your wife that insists on sail. My advise, go sail on some multi's and get some experience on some different boats.


Actually the problem is exactly the opposite!

We know exactly what we want - we just don't know if it is good for us.

Adagio is pretty much exactly the boat we want but it is so different than what we are used to that we are having trouble making the commitment.

My wife has been pushing for a big catamaran for over 13-years and I resisted due to my long history of racing and cruising monohulls. I now acknowledge her wisdom in the catamaran choice.

A big part of our problem is that we have saved and saved for the last 40-years and now are quite secure financially. We are having trouble converting from the attitude of:

- is this purchase / expense necessary or should we put the money into savings?

... to ...

- we can afford to spend some money to enjoy life and Adagio is the top of the list of enjoyment

We just came back from walking by Adagio, for about the 50th time, and even my wife was saying "boy would she be comfortable and fun to sail"

We'll see if she means it in a couple days when I try to make an offer
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Old 01-03-2015, 19:56   #108
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I like your wife! If it's exactly what you want, I say make an offer. You can't take the money with you when you die. Enjoy life while you're healthy. We don't have the money you do, but we are working on our exit strategy. We want to see that clear South Pacific water while we can still enjoy it. My goal is to die after spending my last dollar. It's just hard to plan that out! Hope to see you out there. By the way, Ventura boat yard can haul up to 28' beam.


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Old 01-03-2015, 20:00   #109
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Interesting you suggest that. I have been trying to talk my wife into an N46 for years. I would love to have one!

My wife's attitude is that a good 45'+ sailing catamaran will have a pair of 40+ HP engines and will motor faster than an N46 and will also be more full efficient. When the wind is "Nice" she can sail and when it is not - we can motor.

Adagio has a pair of Yanmar 74 HP engines and motors at 8.5 knots at about 1.5 GPH. That is 1.7 knots faster than an N46 and about 1 GPH less fuel burn. And, when need be, Adagio can motor at 11 knots for quite a while on those big fuel tanks.

Wife says "sailing cat or no new boat"
Happy wife happy life...

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Old 01-03-2015, 20:03   #110
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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"I would agree on the upkeep expenses."

"is it typical to have such a discrepancy in engine hours? strbrd twice as many as port?"


The engine hours are an oddity that has concerned me. The current captain says that the port engine hour meter has not worked for many years. ????

A new hour meter, or a minor wiring fix, is $50 and a few minutes work so why wasn't it done.

OTH - the owner just spent $3,500 on an inspection and tune up of both diesels. In the summer of 2014 he spent $6,000 to rebuild the saildrive lower ends.

It is hard to understand how such a minor detail (hour meter) is ignored while spending big bucks on the major items. I have spent a lot of time poking thru the systems and they all look to be in perfect repair. But, there is that hour meter thing that does not make sense.
Lack of a good maintenance is a massive red flag for me personally. Money spent has little correlation with condition.

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Old 02-03-2015, 05:06   #111
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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I’ve created a spreadsheet of catamarans for sale that meet these criteria:
- 40 to 55 feet with dedicated “owners” hull / cabin
- Fewer than 3,000 engine hours
- No more than 16 years old (year 1999 to current)
- Between $275,000 and $575,00
- US, Caribbean, Mexico, Central America

The catamaran must also have at least four of the following items installed:
- Watermaker
- Generator
- Air Conditioning
- Electric winches
- Spinnaker
- Gennaker

Quick yachtworld search, I see a 2011 Lagoon 450 owners version near us with genset, AC, genset, electric winches, and washer/dryer. Looks pricey (asking), but it's also relatively new. Can't be too hard to add a watermaker? Spinnaker? Easy sail from Chesapeake to S.E. and Caribbean.

Not a recommendation; I dunno much about cats or especially Lagoons. Just an exercise in criteria searching.

-Chris
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Old 02-03-2015, 06:23   #112
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

The Lagoon 440/450 has a flybridge cockpit and the OP has occasional bad ankles. I know he'll have to climb steps for access to and from the hulls but that would make it more difficult.
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Old 02-03-2015, 06:28   #113
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Adagio and the Lagoon 450 are apples and oranges - with the only commonality being they are both white and have some type of sails. If one hasn't narrowed down their search at least to this level, then one needs to go back to the drawing board.

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Old 02-03-2015, 06:52   #114
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Yep, didn't mean any other cat (or that one) would be comparable, just that it perhaps wasn't difficult to find cats with many of TS's desirable features by opening up search criteria. He may have already done that in his original searches, but I couldn't tell that from a distance. And he did mention some Lagoon listings.

FWIW, I was more focused on the idea of being able to add stuff. For example, one of our mandatory features was a swim platform. This particular instance of our boat model didn't come with one (perhaps due to original owner's intentions). We added it. Ditto electric windlass; we added. Could have added a genset, if it came without. Could add a watermaker, inverter, whatever. And so forth.

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Old 02-03-2015, 06:57   #115
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Just a quick though about AC. Lots of folks I know buy a cheap window shaker when shore power is available and run it over a hatch. Once a cruise starts the AC unit is stored or sold and then put back in service when shore power is available. Even a very small window unit will most likely be more powerful and efficient than a marine unit and much cheaper.

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Old 02-03-2015, 07:15   #116
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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Lots of folks I know buy a cheap window shaker when shore power is available and run it over a hatch.
We do that - we have a household window unit we mount on the sliding glass window sill when we come back from winter cruise for the summer and haul out. Summer maintenance would be just about impossible without it. But we leave it home when we head south in November....

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Old 02-03-2015, 07:36   #117
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

So what price does your wife think is good?

Take that price to the seller as an offer. Tell him that is what your wife said you could offer.

If the guy really doesn't care about losing ever more money by sitting on the boat, I would just move on. He's going to be sitting on if for years.
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Old 02-03-2015, 08:23   #118
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

good advice ,, i can remember my brother wanting to buy an a frame on the mountain ,, the seller was asking 42,000 for it my brother had 28,000 and did not want to insult the guy ? when he offered the 28,000 the buyer never made any kind of counter offer as my brother said this what i have to spend the guy took the offer ..
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Old 02-03-2015, 08:27   #119
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I think going in the boat you already have is a good choice. Along the way you will meet heaps of cats and cat crews and you will get the opportunity to revise your cat preferences. Who knows, perhaps you will find the right one along the way too.

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Old 02-03-2015, 09:16   #120
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

"Quick yachtworld search, I see a 2011 Lagoon 450 owners version near us with genset, AC, genset, electric winches, and washer/dryer. Looks pricey (asking), but it's also relatively new."

That boat in Pasadena, MD is on the list, at the top of the price column. It does make an interesting comparison. We have visited two different L 450s and my wife loves the interior. She would be very happy to buy one.

Let's look at some comparisons that bother me:

Light Air performance?
L450 waterline 44' while carrying 34,500 pounds
Adagio waterline 51' and 28,000 pounds

The L450 would cost at least $150,000 more than Adagio and would require
-Watermaker at least $8,000
- Gennaker at least $6,000
- 2nd anchor, chain, rode at least $1,500
- annual insurance cost will be an additional $1,000

I'll give the L450 a $1,500 credit for having three solar panels and deduct some points for having a combined washer/dryer which is not really want wife wants.

So - the L450 will need at least $15,000 of equipment additions that is already installed on Adagio.

The L450 is six years newer with 1/2 as many engine hours and as someone else said - it is very easy to determine the value when we want to sell it in eight or nine years. That makes it a far less risky purchase and that makes my wife happy.

My bottom line on the L450 is
- Ugly
- Questionable light wind sailing performance
- I can not picture myself sailing from that elevated helm

BUT - the possibility of getting a really good price on a Lagoon 440/450, such as the 2009 L440 in Savannah for $490,000 does make it hard to commit to the Brazzapi 51.

Thus - our confusion.
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