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Old 01-03-2015, 10:23   #91
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

The answer is really simple when you examine the laws of supply and demand. If it is not selling then the boat is overpriced. Offer the seller a much lower amount and negotiate up from your offer.

A boat is worth the highest amount that a buyer is willing to pay for it and not necessarily worth what a seller thinks it is worth....unless those two amounts happen to be the same.

Don't fall in love with any one boat up for sale. Keep your eyes out for better offers. With all the boats that are up for sale, chances are that there will be a better offer coming along.

A 50 foot plus cat is a lot of boat for two people to manage. I'm not saying you can't but the amount of work involved may take much of the fun out of it.

The bottom line for a pleasure boat is that it is supposed to be a pleasure to own.
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Old 01-03-2015, 13:09   #92
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Thanks for taking the time to read all this and for making all the great comments. This discussion and your comments are helping us clarify our feeling, concerns, and requirements for the boat that will be our home for the next few years.

It is a cold (59 degrees) and rainy today in San Diego and I like to write – nothing else to do at the moment so here goes.

Our current (subject to change at any moment) life plans are to somehow get to Florida, spend a few years deciding if we want to buy a home there or the Georgia/South Carolina coast, while doing a lot of sailing and exploring:
- Florida Keys
- Bahamas
- Turks and Caicos
- Georgia and South Carolina

I’ll try to summarize how we got to the point of:

- in love with the big catamaran Adagio
- not really sure if it is the boat we want to purchase
- hesitant to make an offer
- unsure what price to offer if we decide to purchase

We’ve owned our Caliber 40, Mirador, since new in early 1995. We trust her in any conditions and really know how to maintain and sail her. We’ve lived aboard off and on since late 2000 and full time since August 2013. We don’t own a shoreside residence so Mirador, or the next boat is our only home.

We are dedicated live aboard folks and the boat is primarily a vehicle, a tool, to get us from one beautiful anchorage to the next.

There are several reasons we want a big catamaran:

- My knees are shot and I want a flat stable platform
- My wife is a neat freak and insists on clothes washer and dryer
- I read & she watches TV so we need widely separated personal space
- My wife loves to cook and is very good at it so a big galley is essential
- My wife will never have a top loader refrigerator again. To even suggest one would be a just cause for divorce
- I still love to sail and want a boat with decent performance off the wind
- We know that most of our cruising/sailing is in areas with lighter winds
- We do a lot of bicycle riding and need to carry several in easy, dry storage
- I like working on boat stuff and need a good workshop
- I do a lot of computer stuff and need a dedicated computer desk
- We want a big outside living area with a big table
- We want room to have Air Conditioning

The items listed above may not seem reasonable to some sailors/cruisers but after 15-years, a lot of miles, thousands of days at anchor, and years of live aboard experience, those are the things that are important to us.

A least a decade ago I decided a fuel efficient, roomy trawler, e.g. Nordhavn, Selene, North Pacific, DeFever, meets almost all our requirements.

My wife refuses to consider a trawler. She really wants a catamaran with room to roam, wash clothes, and bake cookies. She wants to put up some sail, cruise along at 7-knots on a broad reach, and enjoy the view. So, that is what we need to find – big, fast, comfortable catamaran!

Why haven’t we made a firm offer for Adagio at what we think is a reasonable price? Here are our concerns:

ME (the Old Tired Sailor)
- Will the saildrives last and/or cost a fortune in the next 10-years
- Is the boat too much for me (OTS) to handle at sea
- Is the hydraulic steering with no linkage between the rudders OK

WIFE
- How much will we lose when we sell the boat in 8 to 10 years
- How will I handle the boat if something happens to OTS

BOTH of US
- No visibility forward from the cockpit except from raised helm seat
- Limited availability of haulout facilities
- Sofa/Table in salon takes up too much room
- Limited dockage options when we leave boat for extended periods
- There are a lot of production cats in the 45’+ range that fit our needs

I’ve created a spreadsheet of catamarans for sale that meet these criteria:
- 40 to 55 feet with dedicated “owners” hull / cabin
- Fewer than 3,000 engine hours
- No more than 16 years old (year 1999 to current)
- Between $275,000 and $575,00
- US, Caribbean, Mexico, Central America

The catamaran must also have at least four of the following items installed:
- Watermaker
- Generator
- Air Conditioning
- Electric winches
- Spinnaker
- Gennaker

I have found 38 catamarans that meet those criteria. Six are on the US West Coast, 16 are in Florida, seven are in the Caribbean, and the rest somewhere on the US East coast. Only three have all the required equipment, as does Adagio. Only four have my wife’s mandatory washer/dryer and none of those have the spinnaker and gennaker.

The best boat choices, when looking at installed options are:

Lagoon 470 2004 $391,000 – everything except AC and spinnaker and is plumbed for W/D

Lagoon 420 2008 $419,000 – every desired option

Grainger 48 1999 $319,000 – everything except W/D and it has straight prop shafts

The West Coast boat with the best equipment list is a:
Lagoon 420 2009 $460,000 – but it does not have gennaker, spinnaker, or AC. And, it is in the far NW of Washington State, 1,300 miles from here. We’ve sailed Puget Sound to San Diego four times and don’t particularly want to do it again.

The list of 38 shows that we need to spend at least $410,000 to get a 10-year or newer, low hour boat with most of the equipment we want. Given that information, 10-year old Adagio looks good at $400,000 or a little more.

So it seems our choice is to purchase Adagio in San Diego for the “right” price and then sail to Florida and the Bahamas. Or, sell Mirador in San Diego and move to Florida where we could buy a nice big catamaran.

Much of the time I lean toward sailing our Caliber 40, which we own and love, to Mexico and Florida. Then we would spend a few years exploring that area and the Bahamas in Mirador, which does have only a 5’ 3” draft.

Things wrong with sailing Mirador to Florida is:
- my wife hates the top loading refrigerator
- no Air Conditioning or room to install a permanent one
- she is an early ‘90s design, heels, and moves around a lot under way

I love numbers, lists, and comparisons. None of those things are making it any easier to choose:

- Purchse Adagio
- Sail Mirador to Mexico and Florida in Mirador
- Sell Mirador and buy a catamaran in the SE US.

??
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Old 01-03-2015, 13:28   #93
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

One of your problems with your caliber 40 is an easy solution. There is always room for AC on a 40' boat. Maybe not a drop in unit but certainly a split system. The others are more of a problem.
But as you say, it's money to bring pleasure. And if it were me I'd jump on this boat (or my favorite the Atlantic 42).


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Old 01-03-2015, 13:43   #94
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

If your choices are ranging from a Lagoon 420 to Adagio, then sailing performance must not be an issue for you?

I think that L420 price is high by about $200K.

You really need to do some research on the L420 - they were not the poster child for Lagoon.

At least in the US, you will have the same resale issue with the Grainger as with Adagio.

Why buy on the West coast if you plan to take it to the East coast? LOTS more choices on, and closer to, the East coast.

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Old 01-03-2015, 14:06   #95
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

TS - here are my personal reactions to some of your comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
We are dedicated live aboard folks and the boat is primarily a vehicle, a tool, to get us from one beautiful anchorage to the next.

- I still love to sail and want a boat with decent performance off the wind
These two statements are somewhat contradictory. Which to you really want - getting to a destination or enjoying the trip? This is the basic difference between motoring and sailing. Are you sure you want/need a sailboat?

Quote:
- My wife will never have a top loader refrigerator again. To even suggest one would be a just cause for divorce
Top loaders are very common. For example, I have both a top loader and a vertical door version, either of which can be a fridge or a freezer. If a top loader is unacceptable, better check this on every boat you consider.


Quote:
- We know that most of our cruising/sailing is in areas with lighter winds
In the Bahamas and TCI, only in the summer months. Quite windy during the winter cruising season, but with a bit more variation than the Carib.

Quote:
She wants to put up some sail, cruise along at 7-knots on a broad reach, and enjoy the view. So, that is what we need to find – big, fast, comfortable catamaran!
Only 7 knots? You don't need a big cat for that.

Quote:
- Will the saildrives last and/or cost a fortune in the next 10-years
- Is the boat too much for me (OTS) to handle at sea
- Is the hydraulic steering with no linkage between the rudders OK
Saildrive issues depend on what was done for US$6K you reported earlier. I think you'd have to try really hard to spend that much on them ever again. Other than buying oil, I've just spent the very first dollar on my 14 yo drives to buy parts to replace the bellows, which still are fine, just old.

I don't know what OTS means. With powered winches this boat can be easily handled by a couple, including single handed watch standing. My Admiral and I weigh a total of about 245 pounds and we do fine with just one powered winch for the mainsail.

A pity that boat has hydraulic steering. This will detract from your sailing enjoyment, but you'll be on AP most of the time anyway.

Quote:
WIFE
- How will I handle the boat if something happens to OTS
Assuming OTS has something to do with one of you becoming incapacitated, she'll have to learn, just like on any other boat.

Quote:
Lagoon 470 2004 $391,000 – everything except AC and spinnaker and is plumbed for W/D

Lagoon 420 2008 $419,000 – every desired option

Grainger 48 1999 $319,000 – everything except W/D and it has straight prop shafts
The 470 is a nice boat, but that price looks very low. Maybe potential problems.

I predict the sailing performance of the 420 will not satisfy you. Avoid the electric ones, if there are any left.

The Grainger should be a good sailor.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: correction on how much I've spent on saildrives >> I have replaced the shaft seals several times, but I consider this routine maintenance, rather than corrective maintenance for problems.

Dave
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Old 01-03-2015, 14:12   #96
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

We signed up to buy a new L420 when it was just a proposal. I dropped it after seeing and sailing one in the flesh. I wanted a sailboat, not a trawler with sails.

The later year L470's are nice, comfortable cats with "pretty good" sailing performance. You still won't have the fit, finish, and design thoughtfulness of Adagio.

I think that you're over-thinking the saildrive issue. Yes, I detest the Yanmar SD40/50 units because of their clutch cones. Why they didn't stick with the perfectly serviceable and reliable SD20 design, I don't know. However, they do work and so long as you learn the lapping technique, watch the zincs, change out the oil regularly, and never, ever put copper bottom paint on them (use bottom paint for aluminum, always!), you shouldn't have any problems with them.

Adagio's original owner had the boat designed and fitted out for primarily single-handed sailing. So long as the second owner hasn't fundamentally changed that, it will be fine.

RE: Size and weight of sailhandling. Check out the boom furler. Doesn't get much easier than that! I still wouldn't want to try and raise that on my own, with a manual winch!

Personally, if it was me, and considering what you want to do, I wouldn't hesitate on Adagio -- at the right price, and assuming she's otherwise it good shape.

Offer $375K, be willing to go to $425K, and spend a good long day sailing on her before final acceptance.

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Old 01-03-2015, 14:52   #97
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I doubt there would be much between adaigo and the Grainger 48 regarding performance and its built with good materials.

At the price of the Grainger if in your negoiations you build in some new sails that would be the way I would go. Its good value.
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Old 01-03-2015, 15:09   #98
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Thanks for all the great insights!

I am the Old Tired Sailor (OTS)

My wife's concern is that I periodically go thru 2-week periods where my knees lock up or swell up and it is hard for me to move about. However, in 20-years on our Caliber 40 that has never been a problem. Not even when I single handed long distances for months at a time.

International Drifter has pretty much hit the pitch for me. Now I just have to convince myself to pull the trigger.

Thanks for the Lagoon 420 comments - those are valuable things to know.

"These two statements are somewhat contradictory. Which to you really want - getting to a destination or enjoying the trip? This is the basic difference between motoring and sailing. Are you sure you want/need a sailboat?"


What I meant, but did not express well, was the criteria we (meaning my wife) will use to decide about buying the next boat are livability items. We are pretty lazy and when cruising for extended periods away from the dock - we know we only move about once every 10-days or so. Typically the move will be 30 to 70 miles but usually not overnight. So, how the boat lives is really important because we have no where else to go.

NO - I am not convinced we need a sailboat. But, my wife is. She does not have any love for a trawler.

I do understand the AirCon is not mandatory if we are off cruising. We did survive three summers in the Sea of Cortez without too much suffering. But, for life at the dock it would be nice.

I am just ignorant about saildrives and am probably worrying too much about them. The local dealer said the internal gears were replaced along with the housing. That $6,000 cost I quoted included a $1,000 haulout fee and about $400/day for taking up 1,500 square feet of yard space on tiny Shelter Island. I am guessing the total bill for the saildrives was about $4,000 after subtracting out haulout, yard fees, and sales tax. The shop rate for mechanics is $95 and I am guessing about 10-hours labor which gets the cost for parts to about $1,500 per saildrive which is the ball park I would expect for a Yanmar.

My 4JH2E heat exchanger and mixing elbow was over $2,000 last fall.

Yes - big boats, especially big catamarans, are expensive to enjoy! Other than our bicycles and my beer, we live very frugally so a few dollars on a big boat is doable.

Keep up the great comments, suggestions, and criticisms.
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Old 01-03-2015, 15:28   #99
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

If the 1999 Grainger you're looking at is Celise D (multihullcompany), she's got saildrives. Probably the same ones as Adagio. Personally, I'd love to go with shafts, too, but there just aren't many catamarans with them.

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Old 01-03-2015, 15:28   #100
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Let me try to gasp this. It is YOUR WIFE who has decided the next boat must be a huge cat. And, apparently, there are no other wicked huge cats in the world that will fit her requirements? Because if there are others, there's no problem, just buy one of them.


"WIFE - How much will we lose when we sell the boat in 8 to 10 years"
That's invalid. If THAT is the boat she insists on having, and nothing else will do? It costs what it costs and that's the end of the question. OTOH, if she's looking at economics, then figure out what boat will have the necessary residual value, and BUY THAT BOAT not this one.
One or the other, she apparently needs to make up her mind as to what priority drives the purchase. If she can't decide that, she's just wasting your time, you're never going to buy another boat. Redecorate [sic] instead.
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Old 01-03-2015, 15:44   #101
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Let me try to gasp this. It is YOUR WIFE who has decided the next boat must be a huge cat. And, apparently, there are no other wicked huge cats in the world that will fit her requirements? Because if there are others, there's no problem, just buy one of them.


"WIFE - How much will we lose when we sell the boat in 8 to 10 years"
That's invalid. If THAT is the boat she insists on having, and nothing else will do? It costs what it costs and that's the end of the question. OTOH, if she's looking at economics, then figure out what boat will have the necessary residual value, and BUY THAT BOAT not this one.
One or the other, she apparently needs to make up her mind as to what priority drives the purchase. If she can't decide that, she's just wasting your time, you're never going to buy another boat. Redecorate [sic] instead.
We've been married close to 41-years and our decision making has settled into a groove that is not too stressful for either of us. Bottom line, my wife hates to make a change and even more, hates to make BIG decisions if things are otherwise going well. I, OTH, am always trying to change or improve everything in life. I hate static ideas, thoughts, and life.

She and I must talk and negotiate a bit to get past our very different approach to life.

- I come up with outrageous ideas
- She tells me how dumb are my ideas
- We discuss my dumbness
- I determine her essential concerns
- I modify my ideas
- She learns more about the "goodness" of my idea
- That process goes on and on
- I eventually figure out her non-negotiable issues
- I determine how to change my ideas to accommodate those issues
- WHEN I am sure I have addressed those issues I MAKE THE DECISION

I have to be very careful that I do know her non-negotiable issues before I push the decision and I am not there yet on Adagio.

The discussions here are helping me see things from her perspective and from the perspective of experienced big catamaran owners.

I will also accept comments from significant others who have learned how to make decisions that are seemingly opposed by the other party - ONLY if you are still in the relationship and in good (well survivable) standing.
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Old 01-03-2015, 15:48   #102
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

One might diplomatically ask her flat out:
"Honey, I know you don't like change. But when you insist on THIS boat, which the seller has no interest in selling, and when you insist on economics as well, which THIS BOAT can never have, aren't you really finding excuses to freeze the process? Aren't you maybe trying to tell me, you just don't want to change boats?"

If that's what she wants, and you want her (G) then you've really just got one choice: Redecorate? Or not.
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Old 01-03-2015, 15:58   #103
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
She and I must talk and negotiate a bit to get past our very different approach to life.

- I come up with outrageous ideas
- She tells me how dumb are my ideas
- We discuss my dumbness
- I determine her essential concerns
- I modify my ideas
- She learns more about the "goodness" of my idea
- That process goes on and on
- I eventually figure out her non-negotiable issues
- I determine how to change my ideas to accommodate those issues
- WHEN I am sure I have addressed those issues I MAKE THE DECISION
We haven't been married as long as you, so I'm hoping that is the reason I never get past point #3…

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Old 01-03-2015, 16:07   #104
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post

I do understand the AirCon is not mandatory if we are off cruising. We did survive three summers in the Sea of Cortez without too much suffering. But, for life at the dock it would be nice.

Your recap of current status shows excellent analytic skills.

Agree, AC will likely be a requirement dockside in FL or other SE U.S. locations.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post

She and I must talk and negotiate a bit to get past our very different approach to life.

- I come up with outrageous ideas
- She tells me how dumb are my ideas
- We discuss my dumbness
- I determine her essential concerns
- I modify my ideas
- She learns more about the "goodness" of my idea
- That process goes on and on
- I eventually figure out her non-negotiable issues
- I determine how to change my ideas to accommodate those issues
- WHEN I am sure I have addressed those issues I MAKE THE DECISION

I have to be very careful that I do know her non-negotiable issues before I push the decision and I am not there yet on Adagio.

And this is also a hoot! To me, it shows you also know how to use those analytic skills to inform your decision-making process... and maybe there are some salesmanship skills mixed in there somewhere, too!

I dunno from big cats, but I can tell you I'd take the lazy approach if I were currently out west but intending to move SE.

Move. Shop "local." Buy. Climb aboard, go sailing.

Not a recommendation; just the way I'd likely approach it.

Surprised your list of candidates in the SE was so short, but there will be others listed tomorrow... and the next day... and the day after that.

Adding a generator, aircon, and a watermaker are all easy enough after the fact... though starting with an already-existing genset would be even easier. I'd guess switching to electric winches is also relatively easy.

Consider opening your search criteria to genset, spinnaker, gennaker?

Or if retro-fitting the X-akers is also semi-possible, just search on genset, see what you find?

-Chris
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Old 01-03-2015, 16:30   #105
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

TS, the problem is you really don't know what you want. You say you want a performance boat, and then say you'd be happy with a trawler, that it's your wife that insists on sail. My advise, go sail on some multi's and get some experience on some different boats.


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