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Old 28-02-2015, 14:17   #61
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I did not read through all the answers, but having just been in the market last fall, my question is what is the BAC? We looked at and offered for two lovely boats that were way over priced.

Maje
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Old 28-02-2015, 15:58   #62
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Hi I have been following your question with interest. My husband 61 and I 57 are building (ourselves) a Schionning Gforce 1700C 57' here in Aus and will be launching in the next 3 months or so - (fingers crossed) We originally went to the states in the GFC to purchase a cat and were very keen on a St Francis 48' 2003 for $500000+. This didn't eventuate and we went down the owner builder process which will have taken us about 2.5 years.

I am a novice but I have learnt through this whole build is to be lean and mean and any weight you bring on the boat comes with a consequence. Regardless of the price the first thing that concerned me was how high the bows were up and the stern was low and then someone posted a pic with water lapping the stern steps - scarey!!!! I suggest checking this out and seeing what the reason is for this.
If u can solve the first issue, I too think that for the age of the cat (whilst very lovely) is overpriced and certainly would offer less.
We too will have probs mooring in marinas but isn't that one of the advantages of being able to swing moor in some areas because you are so self sufficient - the money saved can then be used for when u can fit in a marina.

Life is an adventure - we only have one chance at it so make the most of it!
Happy sailing in whatever you do!
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Old 28-02-2015, 19:14   #63
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I appreciate all the thoughtful comments. I am confused by the concerns about the waterline and relative position of the bow and stern. I am not disputing what is being said about the bow up and stern down – I just don’t see that.

I’ve attached five images:

Stern View – taken in about 2007 in the Bahamas when the boat was new
Side Stbd – also taken in ’07 in the Bahamas
Starboard Side in Kona Kai Feb 15 – a very recent picture
Stern & Dinghy – taken in late fall 2014 in San Diego
Stern Steps – taken in Fall ’15 in San Diego

I just don’t see any difference in the relative position of the bow and stern. In particular, I do not see the swim step or stern with water lapping over them.

Can someone post the pictures, with annotations, that are causing the concern
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Old 28-02-2015, 19:22   #64
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Hi, TacomaSailor -- I spent a fair amount of time on Adagio in 07-08, with the original owner, who was a very experienced sailor and had built many boats before Adagio. As I recall, he had Eric L do the design and then contracted with Brazzapi in Belgium to do the build. Things went bad with the yard's finances and Brazzapi (Belgium) went down the tubes with Adagio launched, but far from complete. John (the original owner) went through lots of difficulties getting her completed. I think it might have soured him some, and there were some early problems that were probably related to the Brazzapi problems.

The design mission was to build a very comfortable ocean cruiser with very good performance that could be single-handed. His wife was not a sailor and really didn't want to do any sailing work beyond what was necessary. However, she did want comfort and a nice boat in which to live.

Frankly, I think they fulfilled the design mission very well. Adagio sails as well as, and far better than most, of the 50ish size cats out there that do not have daggerboards. She's a heckuva lot more comfortable that most of them, too, and the boat shows the "sailor's" influence in her fittings and deck layout. I saw the original owner bring her into a slip several times, totally on his own, including handling the lines.

If that design mission is what you're looking for, then I think you would have a hard time getting a better design. Well, maybe a Switch 51/52 (one of my personal favorites) would be close.

But, one of the big downsides is the fact that it is custom design and determining resale value 5 to 10 years later (or, even today), is practically impossible. Another example of the difficulty involved is another beautiful boat, a Shuttleworth design, that's been sitting around at its builder (in Raymond, WA) for at least 10 years. John Shuttleworth AeroRig 52

You buy a boat like this for what she can do, not how much you might get in resale value X years down the line. If resale is in your top 3 priorities, then go with a more known boat, like Lagoon/F-P/Leopard/Catana/Outremer/Antares and live with the fact that you won't be getting some of what you like with Adagio. If resale isn't in your top 3 priorities, then this is a great boat for mission. Others have made their suggestions about offers and you never know, you might get a great boat for a relatively cheap price. If so, then sail her with pleasure.

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Old 28-02-2015, 20:03   #65
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I look at those pics from 2007 and she is floating nicely on her lines but in your latest ones she is not (see my pic in post #7). I reread the brokers specs and he says the boat was refitted in 2010 and there's your answer, he added too much weight and/or distributed it wrong. You guys are way better sailors than me and I haven't been on anything bigger than a Catalina 25 in a month of Sundays but that was the first thing I noticed when this boat was brought up on another thread.
Other posters commented on the slim hulls and that means it needs to be kept light and I think this was not the case. ID was on this boat prior to all the "improvements" and it might have been a different Adagio then.
But dammit it don't look right.
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Old 28-02-2015, 20:41   #66
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Just looked at the (presumably) more recent pics on the listing and I've got to agree with Sand crab. She didn't rest on her lines like this when I knew this boat. There can be lots of reasons for this, of course, from too much added equipment aft to simply not trimming her out well with whatever is/was on the boat when the pictures were taken. No way to know without looking. I'll say this, though --- she's in clear need of fresh bottom paint! And, what's with the saildrive work at 1100 some-odd hours? Must be those darned SD 40/50's. I detest those saildrives. One of the things I'd be most concerned about is lack of use. If you buy her, I'd do a very demanding shakedown before heading out on extended cruise.

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Old 28-02-2015, 21:14   #67
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
Thanks for the comments - they are about the same as my wife has expressed to me. My problem is that I am in lust with the boat after having been on it twice for many hours.

here are some responses to questions or concerns raised in your comments:

- we do have a buyers broker who is a very experienced multihull cruiser and racer and is intimately familiar with Adagio

- the current owner also owns a custom built 65' carbon fiber cruising catamaran that is doing a circumnavigation with paid crew. He joins the boat for a couple weeks at a time. He has no concerns about the cost of upkeep on Adagio and has no particular reason to sell her for less than what he thinks it is worth. Thus, our 6-month negotiation with him.

- Adagio was built in 2003 in the Brazzapi yard in Belgium but it was not outfitted there
- Adagio was shipped to Miami for outfitting which was completed in 2005

- a close friend was the captain responsible for outfitting in Miami for the current owner
- that friend was then the captain operating the boat in Florida/Bahamas for a year
- another friend who is a professional sailor, primarily on multihulls, recently helped the current owner sail the boat from San Diego SE 1200 miles to Bara de Navidad and then 400 miles back to Puerto Vallarta and then Cabo San Lucas
- the pro sailor, who has no connection to the sale of the boat, tells me the boat sails like a dream, for a big cruising cat, and easily sailed at TWS in anything from 6 to 12 knots

- the boat has a big watermaker. Our boat has only 83 gallons of fresh water tankage and a 16 GPH Spectra watermaker. We spent three summers cruising in the far north Sea of Cortez where there is NO fresh water available and seldom carried more than 30-gallons in the tank. I would not want a cruising boat with more than 80 gallons of fresh water - why carry around that weight?
Were you in Mexico, Puerto Refugio, for Hurricane Marty? Was that your Caliber?
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Old 28-02-2015, 22:07   #68
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

ID, did she have this really pretty interior with all that Corian when you saw her? I was just wondering if some of that was in the refit.

A few reasons why she's now stern low/bow high.
New roller furling boom
New hardtop bimini (the older pics show a soft top I think)
All that Marine Deck (4.5 kilos per sq. meter and there's a few square meters)
Corian (1/4" is 2.2 pounds a sq. ft. plus underlayment and the sinks are super heavy but maybe this was original).

BTW I just noticed there are no solar panels or did I miss them?
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Old 28-02-2015, 23:30   #69
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

My wife and I have fundamentally different attitudes about money. She wants to keep it and feel secure. I believe, very strongly, that money is only a tool to buy enjoyment and allow one to live the life they desire. She wants to know how much we will have in, for example, 2025 and I want to know "what fun will we have getting to 2025."

As other said, life is short and getting shorter at age 67 and I don't really care if we lose a couple hundred thousand on Adagio if she gives us six or eight great years of cruising. My wife doesn't make any major purchase without a well thought out exit plan. She has executed some real estate transactions that I never would have thought possible.

One of the reasons I can be somewhat cavalier about losing money on Adagio is my wife has ensured we have a lot to lose. She just wants to be sure that we can eventually get rid of the boat.

Maybe someone here will volunteer to take Adagio off our hands in 2023 or so after we've had our fun?

I am still scratching my head on the issue of not sitting on lines properly.

I can blow up the picture of the starboard hull in the Bahamas just two years after her launch and then compare it with measurements I take on the boat in the marina here:

- The top of the diesel exhaust is the same distance above the water in both pictures

- the top of the boot stripe at the bow does appear to be higher in the Kona Kai pictures than in the Bahamas picture

- the top of the boot stripe at the stern seems to be the same distance from the water in both pictures

- the bottom step on the stern is exactly the same distance above the water in the Bahamas and Kona Kai pictures.


The captain who did the Miami outfitting told me the hardtop cover over the cockpit has always been there.

As for adding weight to the stern - I don't think that can account for a stern down attitude. My understanding of the 2010 upgrade was:

- a 650 pound 9kw Northern Lights generator and battery was added to the starboard forward bow compartment. It is about 9 feet aft of the bow.

- Four (4) 8D batteries (600 pounds) were added on the starboard side 2-feet forward and four feet to starboard of the mast

- every picture I have seen of the galley has the green corian counters.

- the two fuel tanks are under the cockpit sole and I imagine 1,400 pounds of fuel being present or not would change the trim

The SD40T saildrives were rebuilt at 2400 hours - not 1100 hours. I talked to the mechanic that did the work and is was preventative maintenance because they had seen some indication of water in the gear oil and replaced all the gears and seals in the lower units. I suspect any Yanmar saildrive owner would be very happy to have gotten 2400 hours and 9-years of trouble usage out of their saildrives.

I am concerned about saildrives and that would be one reason I am hesitating to pull the trigger on the deal.

"I'll say this, though --- she's in clear need of fresh bottom paint"
Top of the line bottom job done in July 2014. I talked to that yard and they were pretty proud of their work. Stuff grows really fast on even a brand new bottom in Shelter Island waters. Maybe that is what you are seeing.

NO solar panels but I would add four 285-watt panels as soon as I got the boat.

"my question is what is the BAC?" My question is what is BAC? - I am not familiar with that term.

Yes that was me and Mirador at Puerto Refugio. Good times had by All!
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Old 28-02-2015, 23:44   #70
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Well, they way she's made your investments work someone just might take her off your hands in 2023.

First I'd show her the alternatives - a waterfront mansion - then quiz her about sea level rises - then say what about that boat???
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Old 28-02-2015, 23:46   #71
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

You will be able to resell the boat no problem if priced right, 'everybody' wants a boat like this if they could afford it, so making it affordable and it will sell quickly. I would make a lower offer to make your wife feel better about it,
and if not accepted, there is no shortage of boats with $500k to spend.
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Old 01-03-2015, 04:18   #72
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

I never purchase anything if I encounter more than 3 red flags along the journey to completion of the deal. If the 'warnings' cannot be removed or answered to satisfaction, there is an issue.

in this case:

Price. Cannot be resolved unless it is at your price. Plus the owner of the boat will probably be reading this thread.

Sail drives. You dont want them.

Questions regarding 'sit' on the water.

Wife.....if she is not happy now, She will not be happy when the first thing that goes wrong occurs.

We could continue but as purchasing the vessel is a joint venture between wife and self, its your life to live.

We all look at things differently. Im not a lover of sail drives myself, and when it comes to purchasing vehicles, boats or aircraft, Im 'ruthless' with my criteria. It saves pain later. If I dont want a saildrive why would I even be looking at a boat with them? You actually dont have to compromise on your criteria, there is no price incentive here, no pressing reason to buy this boat except that you have a lust for it.

There is so much choice for half a million dollars in a boat that can be met by taking a flight to Florida for 3 weeks and looking at at 2 boats a day that meet your criteria AND for a lot less money. I looked at about 40 offshore cruisers before I bought mine over a 3 month period and got to know each marque pretty well before purchase. The one I purchased met every requirement and I was totally satisfied with no regrets on any level.

Do not pass GO with red flags showing.
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Old 01-03-2015, 04:58   #73
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

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I never purchase anything if I encounter more than 3 red flags along the journey to completion of the deal. If the 'warnings' cannot be removed or answered to satisfaction, there is an issue.



in this case:



Price. Cannot be resolved unless it is at your price. Plus the owner of the boat will probably be reading this thread.



Sail drives. You dont want them.



Questions regarding 'sit' on the water.



Wife.....if she is not happy now, She will not be happy when the first thing that goes wrong occurs.



We could continue but as purchasing the vessel is a joint venture between wife and self, its your life to live.



We all look at things differently. Im not a lover of sail drives myself, and when it comes to purchasing vehicles, boats or aircraft, Im 'ruthless' with my criteria. It saves pain later. If I dont want a saildrive why would I even be looking at a boat with them? You actually dont have to compromise on your criteria, there is no price incentive here, no pressing reason to buy this boat except that you have a lust for it.



There is so much choice for half a million dollars in a boat that can be met by taking a flight to Florida for 3 weeks and looking at at 2 boats a day that meet your criteria AND for a lot less money. I looked at about 40 offshore cruisers before I bought mine over a 3 month period and got to know each marque pretty well before purchase. The one I purchased met every requirement and I was totally satisfied with no regrets on any level.



Do not pass GO with red flags showing.


Boats like this are rarely on the market. Sure you could go to Florida or the Caribbean and look at quite a few cats priced at 500k but I'm guessing there would be nothing like this. One of the Freydis 46/49'ers may fit the bill if you could find one in good shape and in a convenient location.
I'm not a fan of saildrives either but it wouldn't stop me from buying the boat of my dreams. There will always be compromises.
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Old 01-03-2015, 05:09   #74
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Boats like this are rarely on the market. Sure you could go to Florida or the Caribbean and look at quite a few cats priced at 500k but I'm guessing there would be nothing like this. One of the Freydis 46/49'ers may fit the bill if you could find one in good shape and in a convenient location.
I'm not a fan of saildrives either but it wouldn't stop me from buying the boat of my dreams. There will always be compromises.
LOL
I guess for me it would not be the boat of my dreams with saildrives...



Every one has a compromise point......... I just would not have looked at it if it didnt meet my criteria. I just dont like the feeling of getting a boat and wishing that a major component was different. I can live with niggles but......

When I was married and having an immigration interview to move to a country in the 80s, my wife was asked what she didnt like about the country we/I were thinking of moving to.

She replied, "well only two things really, the country and the people".

We didnt get to go. Always good to have the team playing for the same side.

Bottom line is that if the mrs is against it...... and things about it are not what the OP likes.......... kinda like beating your head off the wall for the remainder of your life.

Doesnt make it a bad boat........ its just he has some self doubt and some wife issues to contend with...

She has to like it too, especially if he wants to live with her in harmony..
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Old 01-03-2015, 05:29   #75
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Re: Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

Gotta say I remember at least one thread on a topic some what similar to this thread where the resolution was that the OP needed to answer the question what is more important the boat or the wife. Since I have a boat but no wife my answer is clear but I also understand why the OP could well choose a wife.

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